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Post by Aidan on Jun 1, 2007 22:27:29 GMT
A few photos of the plant for the Sarracenia obsessives... The plant will be officially unveiled and available to view at my Open Day on Saturday, June 30th.
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phil
Full Member
Posts: 6
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Post by phil on Jun 4, 2007 23:21:19 GMT
It looks just like any other all green flava. Is there something special about this one that it warranted cultivar status? It's well grown but I don't see any differences between this particular clone and other all green flava.
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Post by Aidan on Jun 5, 2007 1:33:13 GMT
Sarracenia flava 'Suspicion' is all-green (anthocyanin-free) and that's what makes it special. The plant also has good form and is quite vigorous, which is not always the case in anthocyanin-free clones. See if you can find another just like it...
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Post by Dave Evans on Jun 5, 2007 4:15:09 GMT
Dear Aidan, I take it to mean you have tested it to make sure is antho-free? The problem with most clones of anthocyanin-free clones is the same thing that is wrong with some breeds of dog, poor breeding practices by the folks propagating them. These antho-free plants need to out bred and then inbred, which takes years to do right. Everyone wants to take a shortcut and self-pollinate the original clone, dooming the seedlings to inbreeding depression, including poor seed set, reduced vigor and reduced immune system--they're basically retarded as far as plants go. The only Sarracenia cultivators I know about following good breeding practices are at Meadowview Biological Research Station. Sarracenia flava 'Suspicion' is all-green (anthocyanin-free) and that's what makes it special. The plant also has good form and is quite vigorous, which is not always the case in anthocyanin-free clones. See if you can find another just like it...
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Post by Aidan on Jun 5, 2007 10:26:09 GMT
The plant has been in cultivation for eighteen years in the collections of several growers. In all that time it has not shown evidence of anthocyanin induced colouration.
It's fairly obvious that the plant does not suffer inbreeding depression and I have been careful to specify vegetative propagation only in the cultivar description as the method of reproduction.
The plant has been both outcrossed and selfed and produced all-green offspring. Experiments continue and will do for some years to come.
I think the evidence is pretty good and that's the best I can do for you Dave.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jun 5, 2007 21:49:35 GMT
A plant which is not capable of producing red coloration might not be quite the same as being anthocynin-free, but I think with Sarracenia it is... Aren't some anthocynins yellow? There is a specific way to test it by damaging the tissue of leaves. Poke a couple of small holes in the leaf (leaves) not so that it damages the structure of the leaf, but just a tiny hole so the leaf can continue to grow or catch insects. The damaged tissue will respond to this by trying to heal, and that process often gets some of the stem-cells to convert to the kind which make red coloration so as to protect the healing/wounded/irritated area. This test works well on S. flava maxima which almost never displays red coloration without being tested; though some clones of S. f. m. do show a faint blush on the growing buds. The plant has been in cultivation for eighteen years in the collections of several growers. In all that time it has not shown evidence of anthocyanin induced colouration.
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Post by Aidan on Jun 5, 2007 21:59:06 GMT
Extracted from the description: "Nor does the plant display spots of red discolouration when damaged, as is normally the case in Sarracenia." Which may be seen in full, here: www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Species/v36n2p53_56.htmlS. flava 'Suspicion' is not a clone of S. flava var. maxima.This test works well on S. flava maxima which almost never displays red coloration without being tested; though some clones of S. f. m. do show a faint blush on the growing buds. On this point I disagree. I grow many var. maxima and they all display obvious red colouration at the rhizome and pitcher base.
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phil
Full Member
Posts: 6
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Post by phil on Jun 5, 2007 22:51:42 GMT
Has your flava clone been crossed with any other anthocyanin free Sarracenia species yet? Also, why is it frowned upon to self Sarracenia species? I have done this on several occasions with a very large deep red colored clone of flava rubricorpora and the seedlings that resulted each time were fabulous; very healthy and superbly colorful. Are my results untypical or unique or is the theory behind selfing Sarr species somewhat over exaggerated? Sorry for all the ?'s.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jun 5, 2007 23:21:38 GMT
It depends on the species, and the individual. Repeated inbreeding will hurt almost any group of organisms, unless they have near perfect DNA--this rarely is the case. Careful breeding practices do result in healthier plants. Inbreeding can be/is part of careful breeding.
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Post by Aidan on Jun 5, 2007 23:22:36 GMT
Has your flava clone been crossed with any other anthocyanin free Sarracenia species yet? Yes and as I said, breeding experiments are ongoing Also, why is it frowned upon to self Sarracenia species? I have done this on several occasions with a very large deep red colored clone of flava rubricorpora and the seedlings that resulted each time were fabulous; very healthy and superbly colorful. Are my results untypical or unique or is the theory behind selfing Sarr species somewhat over exaggerated? Sorry for all the ?'s. Sarracenia evolved to outcross and experiment has shown that when selfed they suffer inbreeding depression in as little as a single generation. Inbreeding depression leads to poor seed set and weak offspring. Therefore, unless there is a specific breeding aim, it is always better to outcross plants. There is way too much seed from selfed plants in circulation and the problem is magnified because plants are selfed generation after generation. This is particularly true of location plants where growers attempt to "maintain purity" by self-pollinating. Inbreeding depression is the rule, but as you have shown the effects may not always be apparent. Self the offspring that you have produced and this time around you may end up with different results.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jun 5, 2007 23:31:08 GMT
Dude, that is awesome!!! Extracted from the description: "Nor does the plant display spots of red discolouration when damaged, as is normally the case in Sarracenia."
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Post by maraxas on Jun 6, 2007 2:11:14 GMT
I can't believe how much can be learned from a thread that started by showing off a specific plant... You've obviously used a lot more care in your description than most. That's a good thing.
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Post by Aidan on Jun 6, 2007 2:23:41 GMT
You've obviously used a lot more care in your description than most. That's a good thing. Thank you. I wish that I could have added further information, but there is only so much that may be said about an all-green plant.
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Post by gardenofeden on Jun 8, 2007 16:32:28 GMT
a well-written description and a great plant well done
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Post by purpman on Nov 28, 2007 18:43:13 GMT
More antho free flavas!
I was out in site in NC in 2004. This site has var maxima, var flava and var ornata growing in it. Anyway, as maxima is pretty common, I never bothered to look closely at the plants while I was there, just took some pics.
Anyway, the guy who owns the property the plant are on, let me collect seed. To my surprise a few antho free flavas came out of that seed. I got a total of 6 plants (granted I must have planted 1000 seeds), 2 of which were very week and faded away. 1 just died! not sure why, but the remaining ones are strong and vigorous. Seeing how they are two different clones I plan to cross them when they get old enough and create good strong seed.
So.... I suppose these plants would be now be called "suspision" right? or how does that work?
purpman
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