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Post by rsivertsen on Apr 5, 2007 3:13:20 GMT
*test* oh well, so much for my spell check!
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 5, 2007 4:02:04 GMT
is there anywhere to get this true porcelain clone?
I'm not a ventricosa fan per se, but I do like that one
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Post by rsivertsen on Apr 5, 2007 10:36:15 GMT
Correction! In my previous account, I should have said that he was in Manila, not Mindanao. I brought plants in from there several years later.
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Post by costaricacultivator on Apr 5, 2007 14:24:56 GMT
great story! teats and all...
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Post by Dave Evans on Apr 12, 2007 23:03:26 GMT
Dear Rich, How did you come up with this idea? Why would they have to be hybrids, and not a closely related species? What makes the bigger plant the "real ventricosa" and not just a different species? Luzon is a pretty big island, I'm sure there is enough room for more than two species and if not, there is still plenty of room for a lot of diversity within both N. alata and N. ventricosa... Dave E. www.dangerousplants.comN. ventricosa "red form" is in itself a hybrid population, as I mentioned in an earlier post, not sure what other specie(s) are involved, but it is very easy to flower, and over the years, I know for certain that is has been cross-pollinated with N. truncata, and again, with those hybrids, along with an array of other species and hybrids, so, whatever it is, may remain a mystery, until DNA testing becomes financially available to people like us! There are some stunning plants of hybrid origin out there! I can't see this being a hybrid, as it's the biggest thing in Luzon, and it is more difficult than the other forms. I saw photos from John Turnbull’s trip to Luzon, and they had red pitchers, averaging about a foot long, and were red, without any spotting. Mine does eventually become red when grown in some direct early morning sunlight, and in cool conditions.
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matti
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Posts: 216
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Post by matti on Apr 13, 2007 4:11:14 GMT
rsivertsen, whats to say the plants you saw were not the true Nepenthes burkeii?
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 13, 2007 4:14:25 GMT
isn't burkeii green with red spots or something?
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Post by rsivertsen on Apr 13, 2007 18:07:54 GMT
N. bukei is very close to N. ventricosa, but it occurs only in the highland hills of Mindoro, which is south of Luzon. The plants I recieved were from Luzon, and not far from Manila; the large, true N. ventricosa were found in northern Luzon, and N. sibuyenensis (found only in Sibuyan, south and east from Mindoro), is also very close to these plants as is N. insignis, whose leaves are nearly indistinguishable from the N. ventrata clump. I'm not sure if it is just genetic drift, or the result of gene pool contamination resulting in a hybrid population. The determination that these "red" (or flesh colored), smaller forms of N. ventricosa were of hybrid origin came from several Japanese authorities during the late '70s and early '80's who visited these sites, and observed other Nepenthes species (mostly N. alata) growing amung these plants. The peristome, pitcher and coloration is a little different on N. bukei, (from N. ventricosa); and a few have some plants originally from Mindoro, perhaps they can post images of them here. The site where N. burkei grows is fairly isolated from other Nepenthes species, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that some other species may have contributed to the population's gene pool, (which may no longer exist).
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tonyc
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Post by tonyc on Apr 15, 2007 11:22:45 GMT
Hi all, Quote, 'a few have some plants originally from Mindoro, perhaps they can post images of them here. '. Here's one then: A N. burkei seedling from Mt Halcon, Mindoro c/o BE.
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Post by jorick on Apr 15, 2007 13:27:07 GMT
Tonyc - Is that red inner surface typical for N. burkei ?
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tonyc
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Post by tonyc on Apr 15, 2007 19:20:42 GMT
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Post by jm82792 on Apr 18, 2007 9:09:49 GMT
I gave a nice lady down the street who grows native hawaiian plants(I mean like ultra rare!) In her greenhouse is a verisco I gave her it has been killing her ant problem and other pests and it is huge ! I mean for the 2 months it has been in the greenhouse under 50% cloth. From one inch tall pitchers to like 3! Have any nepenthes I could recommend to her that stay small and can handle a good amount of light? Also can pings like esariana handle somewhat hard water? I am considering giving her a baby I grew from a leaf and can they still be able to catch insects when they are misted for 3 minutes 2x a day? Or will the glands not be able to catch prey? That is the reason I have not givin her a dew. She has been very nice to us unlike the other neighbors of the neighborhood and gives my siblings presents and I help her out on occasions just to learn more on plant propagation and growing. They also have a natural bog that is like 40 X 40 bog I can't tell you the location other than it is in southern Oregon and they are going to contact the local university and ask what should be native and planted in it because it was poached and wrecked from idiots that threw trash in it . They have 800 acre "farm"(I can't tell you what type) So it may work out if reseed with the universities suggestions form the experts of the local area. I would get the seed from the ICPS of course. She is hoping that there were some seeds left and it has regrown but I think that is unlikely, I will ask her on the progress she has made....
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Post by srduggins on Apr 18, 2007 21:45:15 GMT
Wow! I had no idea there was a ventricosa controversy. Who knew the most interesting discussion would be under a ventricosa topic. My question is on crossing these not-the-true ventricosa. Don't they produce plants very similar to the parents? If they were hybrids, wouldn't you expect more variation with 25% looking like each grandparent and the rest intermediate between the two? Doesn't this stability indicate a new species exists?
I'd love to get one of those "Porcelain" forms. Does anyone have one for sale or trade?
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Post by rsivertsen on Apr 18, 2007 22:02:25 GMT
The general Mendelain theories of genetics doesn't seem to work well in this genus, as the alleles are very small and the genes are scattered; we don't even know how they determine gender, and the data suggests that far more male plants are produced than female plants. In most plants species, hybrids are very rare, and when they do occur, they are usually sterile, but NOT Nepenthes and Sarrecenias; their hybrids go on to reproduce just like another species, and can further produce other hybrids; and sometimes out compete the original species plants, with their hybrid vigor.
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Post by agustinfranco on Apr 21, 2007 21:20:34 GMT
Dear Mr. sivertsen:
Thanks for your messages. Although the location, data, and description of the porcelain clone of ventricosa given by you are correct, to assume that all the ventricosa have to have always a flattened peristome, have cream coloured pitchers only is a bit too "purist". My guess is that you don't believe in gene pools and you may think that general genetic characteristics have to be maintained as a group and not as single traits?. It has been shown by some commercial nepenthes growers that one, in fact, can select for specific genetic traits in breeding programs using widely acknowledged nepenthes species like N. truncata. Now that ventricosa can hybridize in nature, is a fact, and that there are tons of ventricosa hybrids, perhaps, but we can't expect all ventricosas to look like the porcelain clone to be indisputably labelled N. ventricosa! you'd be surprised what artificially breeding programs can do to a species. The fact that we don't see as many variants of other species like ventricosa is that 1) there are not many male-female matches around and 2) some nep species are not as easy to grow as others.
Gus
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