what ssp. of S. purpurea is this?

[Christian]

Hi,

i have grown the following plants from seeds labeled as S. purpurea ssp purpurea. I am sure, that this is is wrong and the plant is a S. purpurea ssp venosa. I think, it could be ssp. burkii. Any input is much appreciated!



Christian

[BarryRice]

Hi Christian,

I assume you do not have reliable information about the point of origin of this plant....

You're right, it is not S. purpurea subsp. purpurea, I can see the fuzziness on the outside surface of the pitchers easily.

The petals are quite pink, and if this color is true, I'm calling your plant "var. burkii", a.k.a. S. rosea if you wish.

I've seen the occasional S. purpurea subsp. venosa var. venosa with red petals with an undertone of pink, but never quite as pink as your plants. Hence the likely S. purpurea subsp. venosa var. burkii diagnosis.

Any differing or concurring opinions?

Barry

[pinglover]

I can't see any "fuzziness" from the photos but one of the ways I differentiate is by feeling the outside of the pitcher. If it feels smooth, it's S. purp purp. If it has the feel of a soft hairy peach, it's S. purp venosa. It's the color of the blooms that differentiates for me between S. purp venosa venosa and S. purp venosa burkii. The burkii (rosea) has the pink flowers while the flowers of venosa venosa (with which I have familiarity) do not. I suppose venosa venosa and venosa burkii have hybridized which could muddy the waters a tad.

[Aidan]

I'd suspect a possible intergrade plant between ssp. venosa and ssp. venosa var. burkii.

pinglover said:

I can't see any "fuzziness" from the photos but one of the ways I differentiate is by feeling the outside of the pitcher. If it feels smooth, it's S. purp purp. If it has the feel of a soft hairy peach, it's S. purp venosa.

Although often quoted, I'm not wholly convinced that "furry or not" is an entirely reliable method of distinguishing S. purpurea subspecies. I have a number of plants that I have never quite been able to decide about. I will think to myself 'Yes, I'm sure that's ssp. venosa.' A month later I'll take another look and be somewhat confounded that the plant has grown new leaves that appear to be indicative of ssp. purpurea.

[BarryRice]

pinglover said:

I can't see any "fuzziness" from the photos but one of the ways I differentiate is by feeling the outside of the pitcher. If it feels smooth, it's S. purp purp. If it has the feel of a soft hairy peach, it's S. purp venosa.

When I click on the pitcher photo to look closer, it appears that the pitchers have a fuzziness to them, unlike the shiny surface you'd see from subsp. purpurea, as you noted.

However, I've got to agree with Aidan's post, too. I've seen many plants in S. purpurea subsp. venosa range that were pretty hairless, and they really confuse me.

[Christian]

Hi,

thanks for your help! The plant is as hairy as i think, a S. purpurea ssp venosa should be. In my opinion, this is clearly ssp venosa, but i am not sure, if it is var burkii or not. Aidan, most likely you are right and it is an intergrade of some kind.

Christian

[Dave Evans]

Dear Christian,

I didn't realize you could cllick on the photo, to see a larger version... Anyway, I have never seen plants with that color flower, maybe it is my monitor... By looking at the style, you can tell it is S. rosea. It can be a little tricky, identifying S. rosea from S. purpurea. The rigors (handling, repotting, occassionally poor conditions, ect.) of horticulture can stress the plants so they don't fully express themselves.

If the plants are from wild collected seed, there is no way it could be an intergrade. This plants does not appear to be an intergrade.

christian said:

Hi,

thanks for your help! The plant is as hairy as i think, a S. purpurea ssp venosa should be. In my opinion, this is clearly ssp venosa, but i am not sure, if it is var burkii or not. Aidan, most likely you are right and it is an intergrade of some kind.

Christian

[rsivertsen]

I don't understand the big fuss over a S. purpurea with rose colored flower petals, especially elevating it to separate species status. In the last 30+ years, I have seen thousands of S. purpurea in the wild, in several dozens of natural sites, and every so often, I notice a "sport" in the population that has just a slightly different color variation, from rose, to a pale orange-red color. Genetic drift does occur and is a natural phenomenon, the subtle variations in color of the flower petals are just part of this. When you have seen as may S. purps as I have over the years, you don’t even pay it any mind after a while. Some sites seem to have more or less a frequency of occurrence for these things.

[gardenofeden]

a very important point, thank you!

rsivertsen said:

I don't understand the big fuss over a S. purpurea with rose colored flower petals, especially elevating it to separate species status. In the last 30+ years, I have seen thousands of S. purpurea in the wild, in several dozens of natural sites, and every so often, I notice a "sport" in the population that has just a slightly different color variation, from rose, to a pale orange-red color. Genetic drift does occur and is a natural phenomenon, the subtle variations in color of the flower petals are just part of this. When you have seen as may S. purps as I have over the years, you don’t even pay it any mind after a while. Some sites seem to have more or less a frequency of occurrence for these things.

[Dave Evans]

Hi Christian,

S. purpurea venosa can have the exact same hairness as S. purpurea purpurea, or it can be somewhat hairier. Basically S. p. p. shows less variation than S. p. v. Like Aidan mentions, hairness will not tell you which subsp. a particular plant belongs to. S. rosea has a much denser mat of shorter hairs on it's outer surface.

christian said:

Hi,

thanks for your help! The plant is as hairy as i think, a S. purpurea ssp venosa should be. In my opinion, this is clearly ssp venosa, but i am not sure, if it is var burkii or not. Aidan, most likely you are right and it is an intergrade of some kind.

Christian