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Post by bluemax on May 19, 2011 3:57:04 GMT
For me this begs the question: what is considered ethical in the collection of wild materials and what is not? Obviously the ICPS frowns on the collection of whole plants from the wild and rightly so, but what about cuttings and seeds? Plants may be reproduced in many cases from very small samples of plant tissue. What do these new species that turn up in collections begin from? Please excuse me if this is covered elsewhere and I just haven't come across it.
- Mark
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Post by ICPS-bob on May 19, 2011 5:29:39 GMT
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Post by Dave Evans on May 19, 2011 14:21:25 GMT
I think something which is missing from the conversation is we should be able to collect from wild populations, but not harvest them.
Only harvest from cultivated plants like we already do with food plants.
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Post by Apoplast on May 20, 2011 1:15:52 GMT
Dave - Could you please define what you mean by "collect" and "harvest"? I'm rather unclear as to what you are suggesting. The link to "food plants" only deepens by confusion.
I apologize to everyone if I am the only one who needs clarification here.
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Post by peterhewitt on May 20, 2011 9:29:26 GMT
I think, and I stand to be corrected, collection means removing seeds/cuttings or individual specimens. Harvesting would be the totall removal of most specimens.
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Post by Dave Evans on May 20, 2011 15:03:27 GMT
Just so Peter,
When you "harvest", all the plants are yours and the goal is to get as close to 100% of the fruit, roots, leaves that is in the field.
When you are in the forest, none of plants are yours but rather who ever owns the land; the only person allowed to "harvest" or "direct a harvest" would be the owner(s).
There is no good reason, other than a direct order from the land owner, not to make a small collection from a couple of plants.
In the past, cuttings were very popular, but cuttings and directly removing plants from the wild is really poor practice... You would be making a new vector for some possible disease or pest no one knows about. For the safety of the plants you already have, don't wild collect plants.
Rather collect seed, make it less than five percent of what is present in the population. When you grow these seeds into plants on your property you can then harvest from them.
Also, some populations can be huge, so five percent might be too much anyway.
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Post by Apoplast on May 21, 2011 0:42:17 GMT
Dave & Peter - Thanks for clarifying.
I get uneasy when I hear about any sort of collection of CP's. Following Dave's reasoning, almost all CP's are well represented in cultivation leaving no reason to collect them, much less harvest them. We have harvest-able, cultivated populations already and there is little reason to impact wild populations. Certainly there are exceptions, but those cases and conditions should only apply to a very few individuals doing conservation work or research.
Seed collection likely has less impact and is perhaps another matter, except for the most imperiled species. Though if one intends to collect seed from a population following a few guidelines would be advisable to reduce your impact.
1. Dave is correct, don't collect but a small fraction of the seed.
2. Again, I agree with Dave, collect sparingly from several plants and do not strip one plant clean (this benefit your collection too).
3. Ideally, visit the population while it is flowering and hand pollinate widely between individuals (but only within that population) to increase the natural seed set. If you have done this correctly, you could take your few seeds and may still leave more seeds for natural dispersal than would have otherwise been there.
4. Most importantly - If it is rare, don't take anything but pictures!
Okay, off my soapbox.. For now.
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Post by nepenthes77 on May 28, 2011 13:14:36 GMT
He is also selling a N."Giant Tiger" and he also says that is "wild" too.
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Post by Carnivorous Ken on May 28, 2011 15:38:23 GMT
I know you're not going to like this but I don't think we have the right to "collect" carnivorous plants from the wild. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to CP conservation. It's easy to say, "Oh, I'll just take a little." The problem is there is a line of people behind you thinking the same thing. I work at a wildlife reserve and I see it every day. People, take bouquets of wild flowers, stalks of plants that they see as interesting, forever setting those species back in terms of population health and seed production. That's why we have so few wild flowers in the front area of the park; it's ridiculous. If you know anything about the plight of Dionaea at the Green Swamp in NC you wouldn't take so much as a leaf. Just don't do it. We all know CPs are slow growing. BBC reported on this phenomenon in April: www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13000505
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Post by ICPS-bob on May 28, 2011 17:50:57 GMT
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Post by GregNY on May 31, 2011 16:57:09 GMT
Interesting thoughts here. This is definitely a tough debate...
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Post by Dave Evans on May 31, 2011 21:14:21 GMT
"Most people think, ‘Oh, it’s just one flower,’ but if you pick just one flower, you’ve done some damage—you’ve opened a wound, and that lets in viruses and insects. And if you climb a tree, you’re damaging the living part of the tree, which lies just under the bark.” Yeah, I have never liked the concept of cut flowers. I know they are extremely popular, but I only cut flowers from plants that grow in such manner that flower removal is harmless, like flowers from lilacs--once the flowers have finishes blooming you're supposed to remove the seed heads anyway as this promotes more flowers during the next flowering cycle. I know you're not going to like this but I don't think we have the right to "collect" carnivorous plants from the wild. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to CP conservation. Well, you do have to get permission from the land owner... You can only collect plants on your property or with permission elsewhere, so I don't see it as a 'right'. I just don't support excessive control protocols, like this garbage idea that if an organism is endemic to a country, then the government of that country owns the species in the name of the people. China and Venezuela come to mind here... But unfortunately this idea seems to be gaining in popularity
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Post by nepenthes99 on Jun 4, 2011 15:16:27 GMT
So are you trying to say that if we have permission we can go out into the plant's natural habitat and take as many as we please? If this is the case, you should not be a member of this website. Instead you might want to try www.poaching.com.
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Post by peterhewitt on Jun 4, 2011 17:38:58 GMT
So are you trying to say that if we have permission we can go out into the plant's natural habitat and take as many as we please? If this is the case, you should not be a member of this website. Instead you might want to try www.poaching.com. Nepenthes99, you should be very careful about how you reply, with your above post being a case in point. Dave is a very well known CP hobbyist and advocate of carnivorous plant conservation. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable people on this site, and also a senior member of the forum. Some respect would not go amiss. It is perfectly legal and moral to remove plants from ones own land, and from land belonging to someone from whom you have gained permission. From what I have gleaned from Dave's previous posts, he only advocates the collection of seeds from wild plants in a legal and sustainable manner. Many of us agree that some rules regarding wild collection need to be reviewed.
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Post by nepenthes99 on Jun 5, 2011 19:34:54 GMT
That is true, yet as a member of the ICPS I believe that paying a couple of dollars for a good plant is a lot more logical than ripping a pest-filled, beat up wild plant from it's natural habitat where it belongs and selling it on ebay, only to die of shock when it arrives.
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