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Post by brotherlymonkey on Jun 28, 2011 22:17:54 GMT
Fyi, the listing is still there, I assume eBay must have looked into it and ruled it was legit (not a safe assumption I know I am still not buying without seeing a permit). If you contacted him about the permit, and got no response, I would just report it to the authorities. |
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Post by coldcoffee on Jul 3, 2011 9:54:32 GMT
@ Peter: Oh no Peter, not at all! I did not take anything anyone said as criticism. I admit, I should have been a little more clear about exactly what I meant to relay when I posted that information. I did not mean to suggest that this particular user was definitely selling wild collected seeds or even cultivated seeds without a permit- my point was that we do not know because they have not provided that information so we should be mindful when doing business with them. I admit, when it comes to seeds I have my own opinions with respect to collection and CITES stuff, but that is another discussion all together. My issue is that we would not be in the mess we are in with some of these species if people respected their threatened status and stopped poaching. When sellers do not post empirical evidence that they are honoring these regulations, it makes me very nervous (this is why I will not buy live sphagnum online unless it is from a dealer I trust. I could save a lot of money buying it off eBay from random people who supposedly harvest it from their backyards but I have no way of knowing how it is collected and if they really have stewardship of the land.) Next time, I will be more clear and try to sound less critical and conclusive. For all I know, they could have all permits and be the president of the Sierra Club. nepenthes: eBay's response was basically "Yeah, we will look into it but can't tell you what we conclude for privacy reasons..." (I think Aidan is right....) @nan: I just looked over my response to your post. It sounds a little brash and defensive now that I read it again. Please do not interpret it this way, I apologize if it seemed that way- more often than not I write these postings around midnight my time and do not always proofread them. The point I was trying to get across is basically what I just said above in response to peter's comment. I do appreciate you contributing to this thread  It is a very interesting issue. |
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Post by peterhewitt on Jul 3, 2011 12:07:41 GMT
Hey Coldcoffee, I'm glad we can all continue to discuss and work through some of the complexities of conservation without any rancor or arguing.
I agree that any seller listing CITES material, should display the relevant information and permits in order to keep everyones mind at rest. I also agree, that if the permits are not obviously mentioned, it is cause for thought.
As I mentioned earlier, I often import CITES listed material, that originates from TC vendors. These vendors would rather mislabel a plant than pay fees for permits. That is just business. But these are also the people that I see doing the most for Carnivorous plant conservation. But of course, that is not always the case.
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Post by paulbarden on Jul 3, 2011 14:01:56 GMT
Just a thought: if an eBay merchant is found to be offering plants/seeds that are CITES material and they do NOT specifically mention having a license to distribute these materials, then the merchant should be contacted directly and have pointed out to them they have a legal requirement to display the license. (skip eBay authorities, as they tend to be overwhelmed by inquiries and can appear lax in pursuing "questionable" merchandising) If the merchant declines to publicly disclose his or her license status, or simply ignores the request, it is probably a reasonable assumption that the merchant is likely not in compliance with CITES regulations and we ought to be able to communicate this information to each other. Maybe a list of such merchants could be kept here on ICPS forums for reference. Above all, caution should be exercised to avoid turning the effort into a "witch hunt", since no-one will benefit from the generation of data corrupted by hostile or agenda driven actions.
Thoughts?
With only the best intent,
Paul
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Post by brotherlymonkey on Jul 3, 2011 14:35:38 GMT
I really see no issue with reporting someone who has been smuggling endangered plants and animals.
The same as I wouldn't have issue reporting someone for illegally dumping trash, and contaminates, in the plants home site
Such crimes are pretty selfish, and have the potential of robbing countless generations of the chance to enjoy such things, and for nothing more than personal greed.
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Post by peterhewitt on Jul 3, 2011 16:57:16 GMT
Hey Paul, I think measures like the one you propose would at the very least give purchasers a chance to decide which vendors are more reputable than others. Unfortunately the people who are OK with recieving wild collected material are less likely to belong to a forum such as this one.
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Post by coldcoffee on Jul 5, 2011 12:46:31 GMT
paul, I do agree with you on all counts. I like the list idea, so long as record is kept accurately (as you mention, witch hunts are bad). A couple of things come to mind as concern, however. How would we go about collecting this information? I assume your intention is that members contact vendors as they see them and then report back to someone (Brian I assume would be the correct person? Not to dump work on anyone). This actually ties into something that I was thinking about recently. Many organizations have a vendor certification program in place. I think we have all seen them, businesses who meet certain minimum qualifications earn the privledge of displaying a certain certification that they are abiding by a certain set of standards. Well, any stroll down the plant aisle in a Home Depot store in the US is enough to make any Carnivorous Plant grower depressed- they break just about every rule when it comes to caring for CPs (except ours of course- I set them straight! Every time I walk it they tell me when they last watered their sarracenias! Although they still use tap water....). Here is my point- what if we create a set of such certifications. One for CITES compliance, one for passing some test regarding CP care, or demonstrating some competency. This could be both a way of helping to further our conservation goals as well as a potential fund raiser (if appropriate). If that were the case, not only would we know at least who has proper credentials, it would also be advertising/credentials for them and advertising for us Thoughts? Ok, I need coffee now.... they don't call me cold coffee for nothing! @ brotherly, I agree with you on that point. Although I think it can sometimes be hard to prove that actual smuggling is taking place. Peter does bring up a very good point regarding those TC guys. After all, the whole reason I got into Tissue Culturing was to help out with the conservation effort. Also, I imagine that a lot of people do not know the CITES requirements like some of us do. Many vendors on ebay in particular likely do not even know that a S. oreophila is protected at all. I think they point you are trying to make is that IF it is known that it is being done purposefully, then let them hang (I wont disagree with you on that), I think the hard part is in determining that it is actually being done purposefully. Then again, ignorance is never an excuse for doing something wrong (except in retail).
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Post by ICPS-bob on Jul 5, 2011 15:48:34 GMT
Interesting idea. The devil is always in the details. Barry Rice maintains a list of on-line nurseries that must agree with the following disclaimer: "The material I sell is propagated by me or suppliers who develop stock by tissue culture. Any field collection I do is legal, and is to develop breeding or propagation stock only. I do not sell plants or seeds that have been collected by me or my contacts to fill plant orders." www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6280.html |
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Post by coldcoffee on Jul 5, 2011 18:35:03 GMT
Interesting idea. The devil is always in the details. Well, how do you eat a demonic elephant? One bite at a time (and with Tabasco sauce!) |
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Post by paulbarden on Jul 5, 2011 19:15:52 GMT
peterhewitt: In an ideal world, eBay would already have protocols in place that would make it mandatory for persons selling CITES materials to display a license to trade, and/or a description of the source of the material, which, presumably, would have to comply with regulations. However, having dealt with eBay and their "lax" approach to handling intellectual property infringements, I have no confidence eBay would ever consider such a thing.
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Post by coldcoffee on Jul 8, 2011 7:02:21 GMT
FYI:
Me:
Hello,
I was wondering how fresh the seeds are and what your source is. Also, before I can buy them, since this is an endangered species- do you have a CITES permit to ship them and what is the number for my records?
exotic-plants:
Hello,
the seeds are absolutely fresh. We have received these seeds from one of the biggest carnivorous plants companies in Germany.
We ship the seeds in a normal letter envelope, nobody will ask for a special permit.
Best Regards,
Bernd Bordne
Me (a few minutes ago):
Hello, thank you for your response. I am not concerned with someone asking me for a permit. The responsibility of furnishing a permit for CITES protected species lies with you. However I cannot buy from someone who is not honoring CITES regulations which are in place to protect these endangered species. If you do not have one, then I cannot ethically do business with you.
Sorry.
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Post by coldcoffee on Jul 8, 2011 7:19:07 GMT
I acknowledge, by the way, he never explicitly said that he did not have a permit.
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Post by Not a Number on Jul 8, 2011 20:34:55 GMT
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Post by nepenthes99 on Jul 8, 2011 21:06:58 GMT
I contacted the seller directly and I got no response. The seller seems to be an experienced tissue culture grower, he sells rare plants such as Drosera regia which he grew from tissue culture.
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Post by jpyerry on Nov 16, 2011 4:30:48 GMT
I thought I would mention that I did purchase a packet of S. oreophila seeds from this vendor. I bought them over the summer during a sort of shopping spree of carnivorous plants. I decided to expand my collection of Sarracenias (I bought a Dana's Delight, Tarnok, Scarlet Belle, and Judith Hindle in plant form) and I wanted to try my hand at growing a Sarracenia from seed, so I bought a packet from the vendor.
I just stumbled across this thread and I had no idea that S. oreophila was endangered and what kind of hornet's nest this topic is. So, I just thought I was buying a packet of seeds of a plant I thought was kind of neat. I hope nobody thinks less of me for accidentally buying something of such controversy.
If anybody is interested, of the ten or so seeds I bought, I managed to get one to germinate. It took about a month of cold stratification and another six weeks until it sprouted. It has been over a month now and I have no doubt that I have Sarracenia, but of course no way to tell if it is an oreophila.
In the future, I am going to be more careful to check whether or not I am buying an endangered species. And, I will definitely be more weary of international dealers.
Yours,
Justin Yerry
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It is a very interesting issue.
