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Post by Jason Ksepka on Feb 25, 2011 17:49:25 GMT
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Post by Brian Barnes on Feb 25, 2011 22:24:06 GMT
Well.... It doesn't look good or sound good, but he does state that it is his/her land. Sadly, there's no sure way of knowing that definitely.  I'll send some carefully...selected questions.  Thanks for showing us this, Brian Barnes ICPS Director of Conservation |
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Post by Dave Evans on Feb 26, 2011 1:14:38 GMT
...and on the other end, I wish I had a bog I could grow plants in for sale. "These plants derive nutrition from bugs that crawl or fly in and get stuck in their pitcher- not much from their roots which grow naturally in anerarobic (wet) soil...which has little oxygen so few nutriants..I dig a nice clumb of dirt to protect the roots which can be potted in some sort of plastic or other pot that won't dry out or in your yard - peat moss seems to be a good match to surround the rootball with" Very accurate information throughly mixed with completely false information. This is a great example of why the US is still stuck using the English measuring system that is so bad the English (and the rest of world) gave it the heave-hoe. We just cannot pay enough attention to the details... Those annoying details and facts are always getting in the way.  I love the US, but come on folks, we don't put plants in "dirt", we put them in "soil" or "earth". Dirt is something that gets cleaned off of dirty objects and if you were to put plants in it, they would die. If you have a pot full of "dirt" empty it out a get some "soil".  |
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Post by Not a Number on Feb 26, 2011 15:36:25 GMT
This seller was discussed at length on TerraForums and the discussion got so out of hand that the thread was deleted. Shamefully a few of the TerraForums members thought it fit to send nasty insulting and (veiled) threatening emails to the seller without any previous contact. The seller was contacted by one of the more rational members. This member and several others thought the seller was credible and had the legitimate right to sell these plants. Basically without actually knowing the identity of the seller, the location of the plants and the holder to the title to the property you cannot "prove" the sale is illegal. Additionally the species in question are not on any of the Endangered or Protected lists, internationally, Federal or State.
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Post by Dave Evans on Feb 26, 2011 16:58:12 GMT
This seller was discussed at length on TerraForums and the discussion got so out of hand that the thread was deleted. Shamefully a few of the TerraForums members thought it fit to send nasty insulting and (veiled) threatening emails to the seller without any previous contact. Wow. |
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Post by frenchy87128 on Mar 1, 2011 16:08:45 GMT
My my, such language and name calling isn't going to go very far...
There was nothing veiled about the emails. The person(s) identitie(s) are well known by numerous members including the contents of the emails...
As for the location of the plants, this is also known and if anyone involved in conservation is interested in furthering the ''investigation'' and it's "legality" I am more then happy to divulge the information privately... These sorts of threads offer nothing more productive than a 'lynch mob' mentality and he said /she said' attitude. This is suppose to be a site for educated information, not a a High School cafeteria discussion.
If people are truly interested in conservation efforts then they should report the listings to the appropriate associations or directors of conservations rather than post these threads in multiple public forums and insult the lister for what he appears to be or not be and his improper grammar use...
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Post by Dave Evans on Mar 1, 2011 21:43:52 GMT
Mocking, yes. Insulting, no. Got grammar?
And as far and the sale of his own plants; plainly legal and is supported by public opinion and several laws. Why Jason is questioning it, I don't know...
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Post by Jason Ksepka on Mar 10, 2011 21:07:59 GMT
frenchy87128 - I was not sending this in hopes of starting a mob mentality or any retaliation towards anyone. This is not some highschool drama from me. I am concerned for the plants and habitats that may be involved. I posted this and asked for peoples input because I have seen several threads in CP forums questioning wild-dug CP's for sale on ebay. The responses to these threads were often informative and in some cases people were able to work their way through to information that indicated that the plants were either illegal or legal. This information is something that I do not have, and not knowing where these plants are I had no way of reporting this to any local association. Much like the information that you say you have if anyone is interested.
This response from you is exactly what I was hoping for. I am not responsible for the childish, highschool, inappropriate, behavior of others on this forum.
I stated "he clearly isn't a CP enthusiast, just a market digger" which does not call into question his grammar or intelligence, simply states my opinion that based on his ebay description. Which, in addition to the well out of season references to the summer flowering season, which is sketchy, he does not know about these plants and is clearly lacking in important understanding of them and even, as Dave Evans mocked, his understanding of soil vs dirt, which I could care less about.
I was not one of the individuals that contacted him, nor did I direct anyone to contact him or insult or threaten him. I would never do that nor sanction such mob behavior, it doesn't serve the plants and it doesn't serve us at all.
Dave - You know exactly why I questioned this, anyone can see why I questioned this. I did not question this individuals intelligence or anything other than his motives and the possibility that the plants may have been collected unethically. I did not say that he was digging anything illegally, I was concerned of this, but without proof, such as the species being a protected species, I cannot make accusations like that. I stated he is "just a market digger", which is obvious because he is digging wild plants and selling them on the open market, and he states that he does so every 10 days upon request for plants. So he is a market digger and we all know the historical context surrounding the loss of many CP sites due to over collecting in the past.
Asking these questions at forums is a way for us to access as many opinions and perspectives as possible in the hopes that someone like frenchy87128 will be able to provide information that is helpful. In no way did I instigate any of the terrible things that people said and I do not support or agree with those that took it upon themselves to do so.
The reasons why I did not ask the seller questions regarding his plants myself are simple. I am in no place of authority to do anything about it if something was wrong, and many people on these forums have connections to people that could take action if it is needed. I am also on some forums about reptiles and in both the CP world and the herp world, I have seen several cases where someone was found to be selling illegally collected specimens on ebay or in online classifieds. Upon being questioned by people like myself, the individuals closed up shop and were not held responsible. One individual was caught by LE several years later with a sack full of protected massasauguas from NY state. He was tipped of to the possibility of being caught by being questioned about his classified ad on a reptile forum. How many protected species did he remove from the wild and sell before LE caught up with him later? Another herper from Kansas is constantly setting up new Kingsnake.com ID's and selling wild collected animals that are not legal, he has never been held responsible. Granted, these examples are pretty extreme, but my concern is the same. And my hope in posting here, as I mentioned, is that someone such as frenchy87128 can provide information that indicates one way or the other. My goal was achieved, unfortunately, some unscrupulous individuals wanted to go lynching instead.
Dave and frenchy87128, I would appreciate the same courtesy towards me that you ask of the other forum members in expressing your disappointment at their behavior. I was not part of the mob, I asked a question because I wanted information that I did not have, that may have been useful in some circumstances, that at the time were not known to me. Please do not accuse me of starting highschool gossip or worse, and do not question my motives when I felt they were honest and clear. You suggested that my motives were either inappropriate or at least claimed that you could not understand my motives. This in itself is accusatory against someone who, like you, is concerned for the plants and in protecting them. I made no statements of accusation, nor did I insight the irresponsible behavior of others. I would appreciate it if you did not accuse me of such. Had others not taken action into their own hands, this may have led to intelligent conversation, as such posts have in the past.
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Post by Jason Ksepka on Mar 10, 2011 21:41:08 GMT
I will contact this seller and apologize to him for my part in drawing such negative attention from some of us. Perhaps, if he hears from some of us in the right way, we can gain another member of the community who has land with these plants and we can help him learn about them, manage them, and protect them, if he needs our help. Be Well, Jason
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