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Post by Nicole on Jun 2, 2007 13:14:52 GMT
Hi Everyone I thought there was already a thread to deal with this 'issue' but I couldn't find it. If there already one, please feel free to move this message to it. I have a couple of saved CP related searches save on ebay. One of them is 'pitcher plants'. Today when I ran that search, this listing came up cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130120648567&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1#ebayphotohostingThis from the listing (bold mine) "Plants will be dug day of shipment, shipped in soil"So here is the question. This is a person that is clearly taking plants out of the ground for sale. It is also clear that this person does not have any experience growing CP, she does not even list the species name. Less clear is whether or not she is doing anything illegal as I suspect that she owns the land the plants are growing on. I suppose that legally she has a right to dig up plants on her land and sell them, sitll is seems ethically wrong (to me) to do so. So here is the question -- what if anything can I (we) do? Or should I do nothing -- very frustrating Nicole |
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Post by Aidan on Jun 2, 2007 13:25:37 GMT
Certainly unethical. Legal or not is different question.
There is no indication as to whether the seller owns the land the plants are growing on.
If enough people moan about it to eBay these items may get taken down. There has been some limited success doing this in the past. Regrettably, items will often reappear later under a different seller account.
A different but often used tactic is to ruin auctions with fake bidding from fake accounts.
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Post by Not a Number on Jun 2, 2007 14:02:43 GMT
The close-up photo shows a plant in a pot - in the background other potted plants on cement.
Here's one of the same sellers other listings (completed auction):
"Up for bid is one rhizome of Musafolia Canna Banana. Don't miss growing this gigantic, tropical beauty.
Add a touch of tropics to your garden with this exotic beauty. Canna Banana grows up to 14 ft. tall in one season! The tall stalks are home to extremely large banana-like leaves. Foliage is green with a purple/red border. Canna Banana rarely flowers, but if produced the flowers are small, red in color. If you live in a colder climate, but want a tropical banana-like look this is the plant for you!
Rhizomes are dug fresh day of shipment, and shipped via Priority mail.
(emphasis mine)
BONUS GIFT comes with this bid!!"
I doubt the seller is wild collecting these. More likely the seller is trying to impress you with the freshness of the plant which has not been sitting for weeks in a plastic bag.
It never hurts to ask the seller some questions.
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Post by Not a Number on Jun 2, 2007 14:05:19 GMT
Certainly unethical. Legal or not is different question. <snip> A different but often used tactic is to ruin auctions with fake bidding from fake accounts. Talk about questionable ethics. A bit of fraud if you ask me. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
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Post by endodoc on Jun 2, 2007 15:26:31 GMT
I agree with 'Not a number' unless i missed something, I do not think we should assume the seller is digging up plants in their backyard, many ebay sellers will have photo's of plants as they are found in the wild and sell plants that have been propagated in a greenhouse, etc., lets not condemn an ebay seller before we have all the facts
regards
ed
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phil
Full Member
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Post by phil on Jun 2, 2007 16:25:14 GMT
Certainly unethical. Legal or not is different question. <snip> A different but often used tactic is to ruin auctions with fake bidding from fake accounts. Talk about questionable ethics. A bit of fraud if you ask me. Two wrongs don't make a right. You said a mouthfull NAN. And these are the people who are supposed to be setting ethical examples and earning our respect. If the plants are in fact growing on the land owner's property it's nobody's business what they do with them and it's nobody's right to judge them. How do we know they weren't planted there to begin with so they could be sold later? I know several people who do this and I wouldn't dream of judging their character through these actions. Maybe they meant the plants were going to be dug from the POTS they were growing in! There is no proof the plants were illegally dug from the wild. Christ, if every vendor on ebay is going to be crucified based on their lack of knowledge of the 'species' being sold or the fact they 'failed' to list every miniscule bit of information to suit your needs it's going to give the rest of us a bad name. |
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Post by Aidan on Jun 2, 2007 16:52:29 GMT
Certainly unethical. Legal or not is different question. There is no indication as to whether the seller owns the land the plants are growing on. Very selective quoting guys. Please read posts in full before making ill-judged accusations. I commented on what I have seen done in the past in clear cases of poaching and illegal cross-border trading. I have reported illegal trading to eBay numerous times and as a legal trader will continue to do so. The seller concerned even if entirely innocent, is naive in using photos of (apparently) wild plants accompanied by the phrase quoted by Nicole. For any threatened plant this will rightly cause questions to be asked. |
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Post by rsivertsen on Jun 2, 2007 17:36:56 GMT
I recall saying some of these things myself in an earlier year; but then there is the perfect world, and then there is the REAL world, (in which we live).
These days I'm not as judgmental and idealistic as I once was in my youth.
I recall a revisit to an enormous S. leucophylla stand, a few miles between the boarders of Alabama, and the Florida Panhandle, some ten years after I first found it, drive up to the same location only to find a strip mall, and a housing development. It was an isolated S. leucophylla site with no other Sarracenia nearby, no hybrids, just pure, snow white, beautiful S. leuco's, all gone! I wished that someone had offered some of these plants on ebay, or something so that this population might still be alive somewhere. And if only the first couple inches of rhizome was snapped off, the odds are that new growth would sprout out from the remaining stock anyway.
As long as records are kept and logged where these plants originated, (assuming it's private property), to track the specific locales, and those geotype forms, it's way better than having some heavy equipment bulldoze them into oblivion in the name of urban sprawl to make way for yet another McMansion development, replete with golf courses and malls.
I've seen several of my favorite sites for rare ferns, orchids and CPs go this path over the years.
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Jun 2, 2007 17:45:55 GMT
I don't understand why people are so against taking things from the ground. If it's private property then it's not anyone's business what the owner does with the plants as long as it's legal. If I had a field of S. flava or S. leucophylla I would be free to burn every last one to the ground or to sell every last on on Ebay. Which is better? If someone did collect plants from nature we wouldn't have anything we do now. This is similar to the nursery that collects and sells Dionaea from private property. It's their property and if you don't like it, don't buy from them, but don't whine about them doing what they wish with their own plants.
For example I have lots of Cypripedium acaule on my property as well as other orchids. I've dug them up and traded them away to people who knew what they were in for. They were mine and I did what I wanted of course I hardly took anything compared to what was there, but the point is I could have if I wanted to and there's nothing unethical about it. Telling me what I should and shouldn't do with my own property is in my opinion, preachy and useless. I think it's interesting that if someone dug up Sarracenia or Dionaea from their own private property and offered to give them away, that's great with some people and they would gladly accept, yet those same people will talk about selling those same plants from the same property unethical when a profit is made.
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Post by rsivertsen on Jun 2, 2007 18:24:26 GMT
I've rescued a few C. acaule myself from developments, and the best time to dig them up is in late October, or early November, when they form dormant buds, and lose their current year's roots; I also dug up a sample of the leaf litter mold in which they grow, so that when I relocate them onto a safer place, their myccorhyzal associates can come along. One site in particular managed to destroy hundreds of these orchids, even when I notified the town officials! There were also Botrichium ferns (also having myccorhyzal associates), and Lygodium, and other rare little gems, now another McMansion village.
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Post by maraxas on Jun 3, 2007 0:06:33 GMT
I think the fact remains that this is ebay. If the person dug them up and put them in pots and posted pictures of that we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. How many other sellers on ebay do this?
If you want plants that are not field collected, buy from a reputable seller or nursery. This is not a bash against ebay sellers either... there are plenty of reputable sellers on ebay, Dean Cook, for instance.
I guess the point is I don't think one person on ebay is really going to make that much of a difference. As Aidan said, even if this seller is stopped now the items will appear in under a different seller name... in a pot this time for sure.
Educating the public and conservation are much more effective ways of saving plants in the wild, so why not focus more on that?
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danny
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Post by danny on Dec 23, 2007 1:29:09 GMT
I can't believe what i'm reading here..  Property,property,mine,mine,mine... It seems a whole lot of people here are are forgetting that we are just guest's on this earth.. We just pass by people!..and the "Property" which you claim to be "Yours", if undisturbed, will remain long after you're gone..including the plant's on it!! So how ignorant and naive can you be? Just because you're here now, and paid some money for a piece of land doesen't mean you can just jerk everything from the ground and do with it as you please..  The better way of thingking would be to treasure it..and now that ahundred years from now the plants will still be there...and you won't..no matter how much you paid for the "Property"!! Honestly folk's..aren't we all on the same side here? So why is the way we think about these thing's so different then?? A song goes : "Dust in the wind...all we are is dust..nothing is forever but the earth and sky" I'm not so sure..as long as there are people that think they "Own" the place, i don't think they'll last at all.. |
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Post by BarryRice on Dec 26, 2007 23:09:12 GMT
Hey Danny,
I think that a lot of people are talking about what's legal. And in the USA, if you legally own the land, you can take the plants. If I recall correctly, it is because the USA's legal system originated from the British one, in which the landowner owns the land (and plants), but the king owns the wildlife.
Anyway, I think that a lot of people here would agree that it can be sad when a person who owns land LEGALLY kills the plants, for sale or to build structures.
Cheers
Barry
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Post by Aidan on Dec 26, 2007 23:54:33 GMT
This is an observation from an outsider and is not meant to be offensive and so I ask US members not to take it that way.
There does appear to be a parochially US attitude to the ownership of land - "Get your filthy hands off my land! It's mine and I'll do whatever the hell I want with it!!! There's a rare flower on my land? You don't say... Honey, where's the gasoline???" The reality may be different, but that is the impression given by what seem at times to be unthinking, knee-jerk responses.
I think that approach is less prevalent elsewhere and though the situation is far from perfect here, there is a concept of stewardship for the future.
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Post by pinglover on Dec 27, 2007 2:39:33 GMT
Unfortunately Aidan, I think there are many who subscribe to that belief system and Americans don't have an exclusive on the "parochially US attitude to the ownership of land" to which you referred.
Attitudes are changing, slowly but surely they are changing as increasing numbers of Americans think globally while acting locally.
Fast forward to the year 2107.
Who is going to give a second thought as to who had the greatest cp collection of location data plants back in the year 2007 but more so where did all the native flora and fauna go?
This is what I handed out to a small group of youth this year-
Conversations in real life can often be empty. The conversations that took place after I passed out that handout while they walked through the middle of that forest preserve were anything but empty. At first there was silence. It was an uncomfortable silence as they struggled to determine what was expected of them. I had no expectations for them so I did not break the silence in favor of walking toward a bridge overlooking the Des Plaines River where fishermen were casting. They followed. Then I saw several of them re-read the quote while their eyes darted around. One young man pointed out a hawk in a snag. I pointed out a squirrel. The silence was broken when another young man commented that his dad shot squirrels and he supposed that wasn't such a good idea. I said I supposed it wasn't really such a good idea but asked him why he didn't believe it was such a good idea. Connections were made that afternoon as we walked from area to area in that oak savanna discussing relationships. It's very difficult for many to understand that we don't live in a bubble and what I do affects you just as what you do affects me. The concept of stewardship in the US is not lost, it simply needs more of an awakening.
What's interesting is that I saw some of the participants folding up that handout and placing it in their pockets and wallets. Only one tossed it in a waste receptacle.
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