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Post by bluesboy on May 3, 2007 1:41:50 GMT
Hi All, I've been growing South African Drosera for about 9 years now, and so this is an embarassing moment for me- while I have quite a few sp., mostly from seed that I germinated from S. Africa, this particular plant doesn't seem to fit any of the species that I'm aware of; the fact is that there are way more S. African species that I don't know, than I do, as the region is quite a hotspot for these guys, and more are either being IDed, or natural hybrids found. Anyway; this plant. It came as a packet I got from Silverhill Seeds about 7 years ago, they listed as 'sp unknown', and I've sent them pics, and they still don't know what it is- I don't believe it is a winter grower, as they listed as a 'sow in spring' sp. I finally sowed the packet last year! They have matured very fast, and are flowering- I'll post pics of the flowers when they pop, which will no doubt help IDing. For now though, foliage-wise, anybody got any ideas? Sundew Matt thought maybe aliceae-- definitely not! I put the two, both from silverhill seed collection, next to each other. The unknown has much more linear leaves, the aliceae has much more cuneate, or wedge shaped leaves. The unknown rosette is also much larger, to about 3 inches wide on the flowering, mature rosettes. The unknown has stipules, but not as many as aliceae. It also has an almost downy fuzz that the undersides take on before unraveling. Also please note the way the inflorescence is emerging directly from the growth point. It has thick roots, not fiborous, which may mean this is a dormancy experiencer. This doesn't look like venusta either. Anyway, enough typing. Any ideas would be most appreciated! See the pics below. The first is of the aliceae on the left, unknown on the right. I'd like to donate the seed to the ICPS seedbank, but not as an unknown sp., as we all know how that grows into this eventual mass confusion about what the plant is, gets tons of unofficial nicknames, etc. Thanks very much, Bluesboy    |
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Post by Christian on May 13, 2007 5:17:45 GMT
Hi,
for me, it looks like a plant from the D. natalensis-Complex. Do you have location data for this plant?
Can you take a close up of the plants in the pot on the left please. I would like to see the large plant a bit closer. It looks a lot like D. cuneifolia to me (and not D. aliciae).
Christian
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Post by bluesboy on May 21, 2007 0:49:20 GMT
Hi, for me, it looks like a plant from the D. natalensis-Complex. Do you have location data for this plant? Can you take a close up of the plants in the pot on the left please. I would like to see the large plant a bit closer. It looks a lot like D. cuneifolia to me (and not D. aliciae). Christian Hi Christian, Thanks for replying; I'm surprised that not more people want to take a shot at figuring this plant out- it does look ordinary, but recently it has become very interesting- I'll explain in a second. First, you're right in questioning the D. aliciae- I recieved it as labeled as that 8 years ago by Silverhill Seeds. Here is a better picture  Drosera aliciae(?) The leaves are somewhat abberant from D. aliciae, but it certainly is Not D. cuneifolia- this is my cuneifolia, whose leaves are much more cuneate, and it has a much whiter tone, also associated with D. cuneifolia.  D. cuneifolia Whether or not the D. aliciae is truly D. aliciae, I'll look into further. By the way, all plants came by way of seed from Silverhill seeds, and were collected from the region directly surrounding Cape Town, SA. I very much doubt that this plant is D. natalensis. By looking at the name, natalensis, it comes mainly from the Natal province, and whether it is found on the Cape, where these seeds are from, I am not sure of. I also recall that D. natalensis is much smaller in its overall form; please see the following picture- the plant is in a 5 1/2 inch pot, and use my hand for scale.  D. unknown Last, I have noticed something especially interesting in this unknown drosera, that in my 9 years of growing, I haven't noticed in any other Drosera; that is, that this plant, a full day before its flower is to open, expels its' stigmas, while the flower is still closed! I don't have a high zoom camera, but am trying to get one; what I have managed to photograph is one of its flowers a day before anthesis (opening). Please also notice the calyx over the petals is especially pronounced, and covers spent, already opened, flowers almost completely. When the flower opens it is a very pale lavender, almost white, and a centimeter wide. The well developed calyx also alternates between the five petals, giving an image of alternating green to white flower with 10 petals.  D. unknown flower, 1 day BEFORE opening! Finally! please see that the scape is very long! on average, before anthesis(any flower opening) they average 32-34 cm. I tried to picture this with the following shot.  D. unknown scape So, Christian, have any other ideas? Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to take a shot at what this may be- I will have seed very soon of this plant, but will only make it available once there is a name for this plant, to avoid any confusion, or incorrect nicknames, which has befallen so many other South African sundews. Thanks, best, Bluesboy |
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Post by Christian on May 23, 2007 18:26:37 GMT
Hi, now your D. aliciae looks like D. aliciae to me as well  I did not say, that your plant is D. natalensis (or at least it didn't mean to say it). With D. natalensis-Complex i associate D. natalensis, venusta and dielsiana, as well as some of the sp. that are in cultivation (sp. 'Chimanimani Mts' for example). I still think, that your plants fits into this complex. If you can take pictures of an open flower and/or seeds it would be a great help, i think. Is this true for all the plants, your are gwoing of this sp.? Sounds interesting Christian |
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Post by bluesboy on May 23, 2007 22:05:27 GMT
Hi, now your D. aliciae looks like D. aliciae to me as well I did not say, that your plant is D. natalensis (or at least it didn't mean to say it). With D. natalensis-Complex i associate D. natalensis, venusta and dielsiana, as well as some of the sp. that are in cultivation (sp. 'Chimanimani Mts' for example). I still think, that your plants fits into this complex. If you can take pictures of an open flower and/or seeds it would be a great help, i think. Is this true for all the plants, your are gwoing of this sp.? Sounds interesting Christian Hi Christian! Your help is very much appreciated! No, I understood what you meant about it being within the natalensis complex; however morphologically it seems to have an aff. with venusta, which I scoured the internet for locality info, but couldn't find any, to see if it is a plant that Silverhill Seeds would encounter during their seed collection. Also, yes, this flowering procedure, of spilling its stigma the day before opening, is occuring in all of my plants of this unknown, so it's not just one freak clone. I've been lucky enough to borrow a good camera from a friend, so I've taken some shots of todays flower. One of the petals decided to develop in three pieces for some reason, so it looks strange, but you can see the overall structure well, and I'll try to get a shot up tomorrow of a nicer flower. Only one flower opens per day, approx. 1cm wide, very pale lavender, and sometimes there is no consecutive flowering. Please note in the photos a number of things; 1. the highly developed calyx, seen between petals, and from behind, 2. The highly glandular surface of scape and calyx, and 3. The incredibly light coloration of the flower, almost white. Hey, also, I have no seed yet, but will get a pic of that when it's ready. For your help Christian, you'll be first on the list for seed- let's figure it out first! Anyway enjoy the following pictures, which are either going to be helpful, confusing, or both  This is a front on of the flower- note how the calyx is nearly as large as the petals in front of it!  This is a side view of the flower  This is the back of the flower, showing the calyx  Finally, the money shot! You can see the petals distinctly seperate from the stigmas sticking out in the center-you can even see the bifid dissection of the stigmas to some extent- this bud flowered 24 hours after the picture was taken. You can also see how glandular the inflorescence is, as it can trap very small debris, etc that lands on it. Anyway, enjoy, best, Nick Haywood (bluesboy) |
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Post by Khelljuhg on May 24, 2007 7:01:00 GMT
It somehow looks to me like something morphologically intermediate between D. aliciae complex and D. natalensis complex, although the pistils seem to have the feature of those of D. natalensis complex. Or it might just be a member of D. natalensis complex, as Christian says.
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Post by Not a Number on May 24, 2007 19:03:26 GMT
Perhaps it is a hybrid similar to (but not) Drosera x corinthiaca?
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Post by bluesboy on May 24, 2007 23:59:16 GMT
Perhaps it is a hybrid similar to (but not) Drosera x corinthiaca? Hi, I'm not sure; corinthiaca is a hybrid of glabripes and aliciae. It's true that both sp. occur on the cape, so the act of Silverhill collecting seed of a hybrid is certainly possible, and could be the reason that they sold the seed 7 years ago as 'unknown sp.': because hybrids are not as common, and likely aren't in their ID books. Still though, the flower of glabripes is very big and both aliciae and glabripes flowers are typically purple. But I think you're right that it being a hybrid can't be ruled out. Oh, btw, these plants were sown two years ago, from seed collected about 6 or 7 years prior, so pretty good shelf life!- also, if it has glabripes in it as a hybrid they would be too young likely to be showing the characteristic stem. Thanks for your input, Not A Number. When this plant sets seed I'll take it to my school; I am a hort. major here in Philadelphia, and should be able to find a microscope that can shoot photos; Christian, what would you recommend; a stereo microscope at 20 X, or regular microscope at 40 X zoom? Also, I got more pics of some nice flowers today so here they are; more surprises! the two flowers are from two seperate plants; note the circled stigma, which seems fimbriate, as opposed to the other, which is uniformly bifid(there won't be any more from now on, as I had to give the camera that took these shots back to the friend   Note the circled fimbriate stigma, a trait I've not seen yet amongst this sp. flowers  This is a nice well developed flower, with characteristics in keeping with all of the other flowers of my plants of this sp. (Please excuse the backround! My fingers magnified like this are not too pretty, but everything looks kind of funky under high mag and it's the only way I can get a good pic off  Thanks all for your input; keep it coming! |
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Post by christerb on May 25, 2007 17:02:12 GMT
Hi Nick, Interesting info about the flower on your plants. Unfortunately, I don't think I can be of any help, only add confusion  I got some species from Silverhill Seeds in spring of 2000, which is about the time you got yours. I requested locality data at the time, which I got. They came from all around South Africa, the closest location to Cape Town was for the D. aliciae (Grabouw). BTW, they look very similar to your D. aliciae, having rather wide leaves. I can see why they initially might look like cuneifolia. As a side note I can add that few years ago I got some more seed from Silverhill which was all collected from the Cape Peninsula. Among others I got D. aliciae which has narrower petioles looking more like D. aliciae that I have seen in photos. Anyway, back to the unknown species. One of the species that I got was also unidentified, (collected in Plettenberg Bay) and I feel it belongs to the natalensis/aliciae complex. Although not a shy flowerer it was years ago that I had the opportunity to see opened flowers. The colour of the petals were quite pink unlike the very pale/whitish petals that your plant has. Also, comparing the plants mine doesn't have as narrow leaves and it grows only up to 5-6 cm in diameter. BTW, the flowers that the plant had looked rather weird, the most normal looking had six petals and one even had eight petals. What was similar with your plant was the rather tall inflorescence (40 cm) and the very glandular scape and calyx. Anyway, one of the plants has sent up flower stalks and I have now moved it to a location were I will hopefully see flowers again. I will keep my eyes on it to see if the are similar in more ways, the stigma thing is something I didn't pay attention to the last time I saw the flowers. However, if it is as you say a stable character it might just be plants from that specific location that carry this trait. I noticed reading Obermeyer's key to African Drosera that D. aliciae is one that can have up to 40 cm tall scape. I also don't know how rare the very glandular scape is, after looking at various photos of african species many are clearly glandular. Regarding the fimbriate stigma, isn't it just that the two pieces has stuck together instead of separating like the ones on the left side? Lovely cuneifolia you have btw, I got some youngsters growing that look promising. Regards, Christer |
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Post by Christian on May 28, 2007 18:36:13 GMT
Hi,
judging from the styles, i think, this plant definitively belongs to the D.natalensis-Complex. My current guess would be a strange form of D. venusta. I can't see any D. glabripes or D. aliciae in this plant.
For me, location data are much more important than a species name. I am growing some plants myself, that do not really fit into any of the current species. Hybridization seems to happen often in Southafrica and many of what we grow will indeed be hybrids. So, location data is something, that is not discusable (at least if they are correct).
Christian
P.S.: Christer: I still have the D. nidiformis "type location" for you (i think it was you who was interested in them last year).
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Post by bluesboy on Jun 3, 2007 19:11:32 GMT
Hi, judging from the styles, i think, this plant definitively belongs to the D.natalensis-Complex. My current guess would be a strange form of D. venusta. I can't see any D. glabripes or D. aliciae in this plant. For me, location data are much more important than a species name. I am growing some plants myself, that do not really fit into any of the current species. Hybridization seems to happen often in Southafrica and many of what we grow will indeed be hybrids. So, location data is something, that is not discusable (at least if they are correct). Christian Hey, Christian, I think you're right about it being a wierd form of venusta possibly; I don't see any glabripes in it, but a tiny bit of aliciae; I just harvested some seed, and was surprised to find that it is the largest, besides regia, seed I've ever seen of a S. African sundew, larger than D. capensis, etc. It looks more like some of the hardy sp., for some reason it reminds me of D. filiformis seed. I will try to get a pic up when I get time to show it's large size. I will try to germinate the seed- if it germinates, then that will help possibly, in respect to whether it's a sp. or hybrid, as drosera hybrids are usually sterile, but then there are some fertile ones, so it may not be of much help. In addition though, I've contacted Silverhill Seeds to see if I can get more info, such as collection info, etc. so that will be forthcoming as soon as I get their response. I guess we'll see. Take care, Nick Haywood |
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Post by Dave Evans on Jun 6, 2007 2:57:02 GMT
Hello Nick,
If you got seed, I really doubt you'll have trouble germinating them. Sterile hybrids generally do not produce seed as the seed are actually growing baby plants which go dormant inside the seed case. However, sometimes empty seeds are produced, but there isn't much inside, and no embryo.
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Post by bluesboy on Jun 11, 2007 3:44:09 GMT
Hello Nick, If you got seed, I really doubt you'll have trouble germinating them. Sterile hybrids generally do not produce seed as the seed are actually growing baby plants which go dormant inside the seed case. However, sometimes empty seeds are produced, but there isn't much inside, and no embryo. Hi Dave and all, I got a rough pic, using my digital camera, of the seed of this still up in the air drosera sp. As I said, the seed is very large compared with other S. African drosera seed I've dealt with- almost all sp. I've grown from seed are basically little more than dust- amazing a plant can pop out from something so small! For scale, it is on a normal sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheet of computer paper. The picture is primarily of the top half of the sheet. I'm still waiting on info from Silverhill seeds, and a microscope with photo adapter. Enjoy, Nick  |
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Thanks all for your input; keep it coming!
