|
Post by BarryRice on Oct 4, 2007 18:59:19 GMT
Hey Folks,
Regarding the southern distribution of Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa (excluding S. rosea) in the USA, I do not have any records for it in Florida.
Furthermore, I believe that it only occurs at one site in all of Georgia, i.e. Rabun County, where it exists as Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa var. montana. Historical records exist for Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa in Tattnall county, Georgia, but these sites have apparently been extirpated.
Corrections to the above information would be appreciated!
Barry
|
|
|
Post by mannyherrera on Oct 5, 2007 12:52:49 GMT
Hi Barry,
Thanks for the above info. I'm aware of the purp venosa var montanas in north Georgia, but did not know that there were any records of purpurea elsewhere in the state. Tatnall county would have been the southernmost extent of purpurea venosa. I wonder if they ever came down even further. So just to set the record straight...purpurea venosa stretches from South Carolina to...New Jersey? That is where the intergrade form comes from right? So what happened to purpurea in Virginia?
|
|
|
Post by BarryRice on Oct 5, 2007 15:18:21 GMT
Hey Manny,
My understanding of S. purpurea subsp. venosa is that it occurs in New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. I've seen it in every one of those states except Maryland and Delaware.
However, I'll freely admit that once you get north of North Carolina, I get confused by the similarity between this subspecies and S. purpurea subsp. purpurea. There are so many intergrades that the two subspecies seem to blend together smoothly.
Then, of course, there's Dave Evans' theory about the hitherto unrecognized inland species.
B
|
|
|
Post by mannyherrera on Oct 5, 2007 15:38:19 GMT
Very interesting. The flavas of Virginia get all the publicity. Haven't seen much on purps there. But I remember Clyde Bramblett showing me pictures of purps he found in West Virginia. Now...what are those? Are those var montana? They were in a mountain bog. I was under the notion that var montana only grew in Georgia and North Carolina. I'm very interested in all this purp variation.
|
|
|
Post by BarryRice on Oct 5, 2007 22:18:01 GMT
I do not know of Sarracenia, of any species, in West Virginia. (Despite the old range map in my old FAQ, which must be amended soon.) Does anyone else have verification?
This would be interesting to verify.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Evans on Oct 5, 2007 23:00:52 GMT
Hello Barry, Five years ago, I made a zig-zagging route through north eastern Georgia and I did find one seedling of S. purpurea venosa in a roadside ditch next to a tree farm. I was not able to locate the population from which this seed must have traveled and assumed it was somewhere else in the tree farm, or close by. The plant is still there in northern Georgia in very small numbers and I think all of the habitat has been destroyed. Without any immediate management plans to rehabilitate some boggy areas, it probably is effectively extinct in Georgia. Hey Folks, Regarding the southern distribution of Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa (excluding S. rosea) in the USA, I do not have any records for it in Florida. Furthermore, I believe that it only occurs at one site in all of Georgia, i.e. Rabun County, where it exists as Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa var. montana. Historical records exist for Sarracenia purpurea subsp. venosa in Tattnall county, Georgia, but these sites have apparently been extirpated. Corrections to the above information would be appreciated! Barry
|
|
|
Post by ICPS-bob on Oct 6, 2007 1:56:57 GMT
The ability of a single S. purpurea plant to completely occupy a previously unoccupied suitable habitat is demonstrated by the Cranberry Bog, Ohio, story where a single S. purpurea transplanted by an Ohio State University graduate student in 1912, saturated the habitat with an estimated 157,000 individual plants after about 30 years. More information is at icps.proboards105.com/index.cgi?board=northamerica&action=display&thread=1188308626It would be interesting to survey the diversity emanating from that single plant over the past 95 years.
|
|
|
Post by rsivertsen on Oct 6, 2007 2:32:46 GMT
Over the years, I've heard several such accounts where various plants, which were harvested from other areas, (some from already doomed sites), were collected and transplanted into newly formed bogs where recent clearing (mostly from turpentine harvesting and processing fields) had rendered these sites ready for these introductions, and they just took over. Unfortunately, most of these sites were not very well documented.
This was a time before EPA (regulations and enforcement agencies), where some working relationships existed between the developers and various university and college institutions, with some degree of cooperation for a mutual goal.
Sometimes, the best of intentions backfire in the long run.
These days, some of us find these unique stands of S. pupuerea and D. rotundifolia, and other plants, not even realizing that they were all origianally from some other site.
|
|
toof
Full Member
Posts: 4
|
Post by toof on Oct 14, 2007 7:02:19 GMT
What a great and productive discussion. Dave is certainly well read on the subject with the existing literature. Your comments about Schnell's efforts seem particularly interesting to me. While I believe his work, as a whole, has greatly contributed to our knowledge of Sarracenia, his conclusions are based upon limited or no science. Ironically, in Schnell's first book he criticizes Case's recognition of S.alabamensis. Stating that Case's "studies were not thorough." Such a comment couldn't be further from the truth, as Case's studies have a thorough scientific basis and strict botanical principles. A much more botanically valid effort than Schnell's. In my opinion Schnell has produced a very "user-friendly" body of literature. His flava and rubra taxonomy is easy to use and understand, even if it has serious flaws. Great discussions! I have my doubts that oreophila is a stable hybrid, though Dave. My thoughts are that it is an ancestral form of flava. Stefan
|
|
|
Post by meadowview on Oct 14, 2007 16:36:09 GMT
Hi Folks:
We have the complete distribution of Sarracenia purpurea and S. rosea mapped out by county and province within the U.S. and Canada. To make a long story short here are the following significant bullets:
1. S. purpurea is not native to the mountains of Virginia. This taxon only found on coastal plain in VA with small Piedmont incursion in Brunswick Co., VA.
2. S. purpurea not native to West Virgnia. Populations introduced from extirpated colony at Highpoint on PA/MD border (see 2006 ICPS Frostburg conf. for details).
3. S. purpurea venosa EXTANT in GA coastal plain in Tatnall County. This population extremely rare. Extirpated populations originally discovered by Roland Harper in Tatnall County in early 1900's. Extant pops. in Tatnall have been sprayed with herbicide and in recovery.
4. Mountain S. purpurea in GA is recognized as var. montana. Populations extremely rare.
5. Major gap (hundreds of miles) between mountain pops. in Rabun and coastal Tatnall S. purpurea venosa pops BUT S. purpurea originally scattered through Piedmont in NC bridging coastal and mountain pops. of S. purp. venosa.
6. There were three historical pops. of S. rosea in SW Georgia (Lee, Randolph, Tift Counties). All sites extirpated. The most recent population (Randolph) eliminated by 1960. There is a MAJOR range gap between the SW Georgia S. rosea occurrences and the eastern Tatnall and north Georgia Rabun County S. purpurea. This range gap, along with numerous morphological, biochemical, ecological, and physical differences help separate S. rosea from the S. purpurea group. The SW Georgia S. rosea were part of the gulf coast range of this taxon.
7. We have done extensive work on S. purpurea in Maryland and VA and have the taxon's range mapped in detail. Populations are in serious declines or are being extirpated. In Virgina, we have a little over 500 plants left in the state in natural sites with over 75% of the plants in one site within the state. Where possible, plants are being raised in ex situ conservation and/or being incorporated in restoration work at Joseph Pines Preserve.
8. My personal opinion, and ongoing research, indicate that mid-Atlantic S. purpurea (e.g. coastal Georgia to at least NJ) is one taxonomic entity.
Sincerely,
Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station
|
|
|
Post by Michael Catalani on Oct 14, 2007 17:17:09 GMT
Extant pops. in Tatnall have been sprayed with herbicide and in recovery. Welcome Phil, great to have you on here! Was this an intentional spraying of the population with herbicide? I know there are some sites (especially with S. alabamensis) in which the overgrowth and/or invasive species have become so numerous that herbicides have had to be utilized in order to attempt to recover the location for long term viability. I was just wondering if that was the case here, or if they were in a location (such as a railroad easement) where they were sprayed with herbicide simply for weed control. Also, I encourage anyone who has not done so to go to Phils site. There is a lot of info on Sarrecenia, and contains some really interesting historical accounts.
|
|
|
Post by meadowview on Oct 14, 2007 17:38:25 GMT
Hi Mike:
Glad to be on the forum.
The Tatnall, GA population of S. purpurea was intentionally sprayed by an incompetent right-of-way maintenance crew despite: a. a written agreement with the utility not to spray and b. signs on both sides of the wetland stating the area shouldn't be sprayed. In short, cheap herbicide crews don't get the message. Many of the power line pitcher plant colonies that we documented have been adversely impacted by herbicides. Of course, this is just one of the many ongoing factors leading to the demise of Sarracenia in the southeast.
In addition, this very valuable Tatnall Co., GA population has also suffered from the usual poaching insults. I saw the site before it was sprayed and poached and there were some beautiful large S. x catesbaei and S. minor x S. purpurea. Of course, the large S. x catesbaei clumps were soon poached.
I spent a considerable amount of time (over 10 years field work) working remote parts of Georgia trying to track down old Sarracenia colonies and researching significant range questions in that state for S. oreophila, S. purpurea, S. leucophylla, and Sarracenia in general.
The Atlantic coastal range for S. purpurea terminates in Tattnall County, Georgia and did not extend into Florida. In fact, S. purpurea starts getting pretty rare on the coast of South Carolina just north of Charleston.
Best,
Phil
|
|
|
Post by Michael Catalani on Oct 14, 2007 18:01:30 GMT
Your comments about Schnell's efforts seem particularly interesting to me. While I believe his work, as a whole, has greatly contributed to our knowledge of Sarracenia, his conclusions are based upon limited or no science. Ironically, in Schnell's first book he criticizes Case's recognition of S.alabamensis. Stating that Case's "studies were not thorough." Such a comment couldn't be further from the truth, as Case's studies have a thorough scientific basis and strict botanical principles. A much more botanically valid effort than Schnell's. In my opinion Schnell has produced a very "user-friendly" body of literature. His flava and rubra taxonomy is easy to use and understand, even if it has serious flaws. Great discussions! I have my doubts that oreophila is a stable hybrid, though Dave. My thoughts are that it is an ancestral form of flava. Stefan Schnell has contributed much to our knowledge of Sarracenia. However, I believe he really missed the mark on Sarracenia alabamensis. My problem with his handling of S. alabamensis is that he de-elevated S. alabamensis to a subspecies of S. rubra in "Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada", having not observed the plants in the wild before he did this. Yet, in the same section of the book, he harks about people elevating other subspecies of S. rubra to species status with only "irregular field visits." Also, in this same section of his book, he called the Case's work "not thorough," without mentioning what was not thorough about it. This appeared to be a rather cheap shot, whether or not it was intentional. Heated emotions could have been kept at bay if he had stated what about the work was not thorough enough. For a few years after this, it appeared that Schnell was simply on a mission to prove that S. alabamensis was a subspecies of S. rubra. While some of his points on similarities were valid, he appeared to only hark on these, and really didnt mention or simply dismissed the glaring differences.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Evans on Oct 15, 2007 5:49:40 GMT
Hello Stefan, Just a quick note: I think it is possible that S. oreophila is an ancestral form of S. flava, it doesn't seem likely to me because S. oreophila seemed to be more derived (or evolved) from S. flava than the other way around. It's niche is more specific than that of S. flava with a much more restricted distribution. Then there is the nucleic DNA which also shows a very close relation to S. rubra... I don't think S. oreophila is a stable hybrid, I rather suspect it is still establishing itself, or could become more wide spread in the future if people were not performing so much damage to the environment, thereby limiting S. o. chances to have a future. Great discussions! I have my doubts that oreophila is a stable hybrid, though Dave. My thoughts are that it is an ancestral form of flava. Stefan
|
|
|
Post by mannyherrera on Oct 15, 2007 12:50:19 GMT
Hi Phil,
Thanks for that information.. It is very helpful. It seems then that the plants Clyde Bramblett witnessed in West Virginia were introduced. To my recollection that thought didn't even cross our minds.
I'm interested in your work regarding leucophylla in Georgia. I had an interesting conversation with a park ranger in the Okeefenokee a few years ago. He insisted that he had seen leucophylla growing in the refuge. He didn't, however, disclose their location. I also remember hearing Bruce Bednar talk about leucophylla occuring in or around Americus, Georgia.
|
|