Conservation Project

[bouncingwatermelon]

I had in my mind a project that was originally for cps only but now encompasses orchids and ferns, and possibly some pets.

In Japan, most internet users use Yahoo! Japan as their internet portal. It is probably more popular than Google. One of their services, Yahoo! Auctions, is just like eBay. Lots of users use it, and so, like eBay, people sell exotic plants.

Which isn't instantly bad.

The reason it concerns me is that many people openly state that their plant was "collected from the wild". The pictures show dense mats of uprooted plants. They can be easily identified even by a novice because the mats are really dense, with fibrous roots everywhere, entangling all the plants into one single piece. That doesn't happen with cultivated plants, where airy mixes are often used, and the surface is unwittingly disturbed by daily activity. Besides, the plants are half wilted by then: why uproot them, when they could have been sold in pots instead, if it had been a cultivated specimen? Based on this visual evidence, I figured that not only are the sellers declaring that their plants are wild, the plants are actually wild.

Offers like this are bid for highly. As a result, many sellers have up to 10 identical offerings simultaneously. This is a serious problem, because if the plants were collected from the wild, then they were 'harvested' in very large numbers with the specific intention of sales.


While I knew I should help to stop such sales, there are quite a few problems. Most importantly, the staff of Yahoo! Auctions would not know how to identify a poached plant from a cultivated one. They also would not be interested in doing so, because they earn a lot of money hosting the sales (monthly fees to be eligible for selling, and a 5.25% system fee for each sale after the 10th offer for the month). Further complicating matters, should the seller start claiming that they collected the plants from their own land, there would be no way to prove otherwise.


so... I am not sure how I am supposed to stop these shady sales. If any of you has any ideas, please help.

[marcel]

A well know problem, but let us start first by establishing that not every wild collected plant is illegal. This subject has come up over and over again and the sad fact is that it depends on the local law , the species and even on the ownership of the area if collecting wild plants is legal or not.

I do not know what the law on this species, in this country on that location is but until there is proof of illegal activity from this given point there is not much you can do anyway.

That doesn't mean you have to like it or can't have your suspicions of course.

[coldcoffee]

I kind of gave up honestly. I have contacted eBay multiple times about CITES protected plants, federally endangered plants (not just seeds, I have literally seen Sarracenia Oreophila plants for sale on eBay). I have literally contacted CITES officials via email in forgein countries about the sale of "Critically endangered" species (one auction actually listed the plant as "very rare- CRITICALLY ENDANGERED" in caps like that and everything- in the listing header). Still, the auctions stay up, nothing seems to happen. I have literally emailed them links to reputable sites explicitly showing that the species is protected.
One time, I even went as far as to contact the authors of an article I read about the "Poaching problems in Indonesia"(I am paraphrasing). They were the representatives of a non-profit organization that supposedly fights this kind of thing. I did not direct them to a specific instance of an auction but asked for their help and offered to do all of the leg work- they never even bothered to respond!

What needs to happen is one of two things:
1) The demand for poached plants needs to drop- IE we as collectors need to stop funding these criminals and need to quite innocently buying plant material that we know is wrong "just this once, maybe I can do some good by propagating it, blah blah blah". This means we need to stop buying "Seed grown N. <Insert super rare species here>" when we know very well that those seeds were likely poached. Anyone who has been on ebay for more than 5 minutes knows how to find endangered Nepenthes seeds.
2) The market needs to be flooded. IE, plants like N. Dubia need to quit going for over $100. This means a propagation campaign needs to be started to mass produce these plants and get them out there- drop the price dramatically. A lot of the problem is that the demand for rare plants is not being met. A lot of that demand has little to do with the plants themselves but rather their resale value. Another thing, we need Nepenthes seed producers here in the US. I am hoping to pull something like this together in the future myself.

Personally, I stop giving my business to eBay. At least for a while. I got sick of it.

[coldcoffee]

Oh, and when I say that I have seen these plants- I have contacted the sellers about permits a few times. I get the same response.
"We dont have any permits but that is ok, we will mark the package as a toy or something- nobody will bother you about customs"

[Apoplast]

I feel like there are two concerns being voiced here. Marcel's point speaks to the legality of collection (and Coldcoffee's point too). Legality varies by country and the local laws may or may not be directed to the best interest of the plants. That said, it is uncommon for laws to "over protect" a plant. So, at a bare minimum, if someone is collecting in a way that is illegal, it is almost certainly bad for the species.

The other concern seems to be one of morality. This, of course, is harder to delineate than legality. But it is probably more important. I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why do people value plants that have been collected from the wild?

Certainly if the species would be new in cultivation, that is a strong motivating factor. But legitimately this should only happen a few times. "Few", assuming some efforts will not succeed, and/or the drive to increase genetic diversity in cultivation beyond a single collection.

But as B.W. pointed out some people are willing to pay high prices for wild collected plants that are already in cultivation. If they are rare, either in the wild or in cultivation, that is likely to drive up prices and be a motivating factor as Coldcoffee pointed out. Unfortunately, the continued poaching of VFT plants from their natural habitats is emblematic abundance in cultivation and correspondingly low price is not alone responsible for the desire for wild collected plants.

So what is? After that whole lead up, you'd think I'd have an answer, but no. Perhaps, it is because I tend to see wild plants as dirty. Not so much as morally dirty, but dirty in their potential to harbor pests and pathogens. However, clearly some people prefer "wild" plants.

I suspect that this thread is in the correct section for thinking about ways to solve the problem - education. If the source of the problem is that people place added value on "wild" plants, then the solution is to change people's mind sets. I don't propose to know how to do this, but identifying what in people's minds gives "wild collected" added value is probably the place to start.

The solution needs to be a cultural shift away from seeing collected plants, legal or not, as valuable, to seeing that attribute as reducing the value. Perhaps the "dirtiness" of wild collected plants might be an angle? Regardless of how it is achieved, it will be a difficult but worthwhile endeavor.

[coldcoffee]

Oh, I want to make a point very clear. I said that I have more or less given up. Please understand this misguided comment for what it was- frustration. This is something that really bothers me a lot. BW, I very much respect your cognizance here. The fact that you even notice a problem is very good. I did not mean to discourage you in anyway. Quite the contrary! I think this is a very big (and very complicated) problem which needs to be resolved.

Regarding the morality vs. collection issue. Which I am not so sure that CITES is the perfect solution to the problem of protecting valuable rare plants, the CITES lists at least give us a list to go by. Further, just because a plant is legal to collect in one nation does not make it legal to import into another if proper CITES permits are not used.

Now here is where I condeed that I have tried to wrap my tiney little brain around the CITES regulations and they are just plain confusing. I am not trying to represent myself as a CITES expert here. All I am saying is one has to start somewhere, I think the CITES appendicies are a good starting point.

[ICPS-bob]

I have often wondered about the psychology of collecting wild plants. I think it has something to do with people thinking stuff is free and there for the taking. Nature provides, people take. I think this exists even without a profit motive. In addition, if you can sell the stuff, there is an even greater reason to take it. Humans (and all animals) have been exploiting natural resources as long as they have existed. Only recently (within a few thousand years) has the idea of buying things entered the thinking. Until relatively recently, the general model has been "If you found something, you simply took it (or fought for it)".

Anyway, I think that is the basic idea. Some people are more socially developed than others. Some people dump their trash along the side of the road; others deposit it in the proper location (or recycle) -- or even pick up the mess that others made.

So what does this have to do with Yahoo! Auctions and eBay? I think it just points out the extreme difficulty in educating the public and auction administrators that such practices as collecting and/or selling wild plants is wrong. That is not to say that we should not make the attempt.

[Aidan]

Another (perhaps minor but perhaps not) factor is that there exists a subset of collectors who will pay high prices for plants that other growers do not have and by definition, wild-collected plants will not be in anyone elses collection. Often unpleasant individuals, they are the trophy hunters who value only rarity.

[ICPS-bob]

Along the trophy hunter line, for those that have not already read it, get Susan Orlean's The Orchid Thief. It tells a lot about that type of personality.
susanorlean.com/books/the-orchid-thief.php
It is the story of John Laroche -- who by the way was, at one time, quite active in the CP community.
www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/slides/tc/hood.htm
www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/list/cp95alld/0550.htm

[coldcoffee]

Very good point Aidan.

[bouncingwatermelon]

As it is quite evident that it is impossible to prove that a plant was collected illegally, I was thinking of focusing more on the moral part, that to collect plants for sales hurts the plants and their environment.


The question: why are wild plants so good?
Just like the VFTs mentioned by Apoplast, many of the wild orchids I have seen on Yahoo! Auctions are relatively well known species. Anybody could buy those orchids with a good search on the web, for prices that amount to about $10~$40 (size varies considerably).
So why do so many enthusiasts buy wild plants? I do think the trophy thing plays a role, but in the case of Japan, this may also be due to a deep-rooted culture that has to do with bonsai, where wild plants, especially those with special genetical characteristics (but not necessarily with them) are cherished far more than any other horticultural group (why this happens, I have not fully understood, but Japanese horticulturalists are traditionally interested in variegations and other strange growth habits). Because this culture developed at a time without in vitro cultivation, it relies on collection of such plants from the wild, and will stick to that process of collection even today because 'its part of the fun'.
As such enthusiasts will likely defend their hobby with much emotion, a simple 'education' program where we tell people that 'its not good to collect wild plants for sale' may not be effective except to beginners.

So, while we search for more effective ways to strictly educate beginner plant enthusiasts (those who are less likely to be caught up in the aforementioned culture), we also need ways to enforce the moral rules, meaning that we should take direct measures to stop these sales. That is why I brought up the Yahoo! Auctions thing.

While we may not be able to prove that the plants are being sold illegally, we may still be able to convince the staff that it is immoral, is that not so?

[coldcoffee]

Another question- just because something is not illegal does not mean that it should not be. That is to say, if people are wild collecting plants and causing damage to the environment- perhaps it is time to open up the question of the legality of wild collecting.

Have you contacted any environmental protection groups there? Projects like these can sometimes be helped with the aid of larger interest groups. Its also possible that they are already working on a similar project. There is definitely strength in numbers.

[coldcoffee]

Ah, I should point out of course that if they are not causing significant damage to the plant populations, illegalizing could arguably exacerbate the situation by drawing greater attention to the wild plant populations (and by basically labeling these plants as "rare" which every ebay seller in the world knows is an instant seller. I laugh every time I see "Rare sarracenia purpurea" on ebay) and increase market value by reducing supply. Nonetheless, its still worth considering.

[coldcoffee]

Hi bouncingwatermelon,
As I mentioned before (in some form or other), I think what you are doing is fantastic and I applaud both your care and initiative in this. I think it is very unfortunate that more people are not aware of some of the poaching activities that are going on and what this can mean in the grander scheme of things.

Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to give you specific advise on what to say and what not to say, I will leave that to those that know a little more about the issues facing the conservation effort.

That said, I do have a couple of thoughts based on my personal experience advocating (on a individual level) for not only plants but some animal species as well:
1) This may seem counter intuitive, but be very careful not to let your personal passion for these issues cloud your judgement with respect to conveying your message to others- especially when you are inevitably faced with counter-arguments and criticisms. People tend to have very different ideas about what proper conservation efforts look like. Often, they are well intentioned and their ideas are deeply rooted in good principles, they have just come to different conclusions than you. (At the end of the day- whose to say they are not right?)
Speaking from personal experience- There have been times I have tried to raise important points and been met with differing opinion that have lead me to get a little argumentative and sometimes a bit brash. A lot of this is just my personality and social group. I hang around hardcore science and technically minded people all day- that is how we communicate. We argue, debate, call each other morons from time to time, then we all go out and have lunch together- no problem.
The problem is, this can really turn people away very quickly if they do not come from that culture and I hate to say it but I have inadvertently taken this approach a few times in the conservation debate and really felt bad about it later because I have left people very angry and possibly non-receptive (this is part of the reason I have backed off on conservation issues recently- that and I felt the need to educate myself more on these issues. Live and learn...). The main point here- consider your audience and how you can communicate your message clearly and directly- without getting on a soapbox. The important point here is that people hear your message and consider it deeply. If they are turned away by your mode of communication- that will not do anyone any good as they will write your message off as bigotry. Moral of the story: inform, compell, stress the point, but don't preach or take opinions personally.
2) This is a personal opinion. I think that sometimes (not always), raising an issue with respect to threatened species can actually exacerbate the problem if not approached carefully. With respect to carnivorous plants, it can be argued that in making a big deal about these "rare" plants and how they are disappearing from the wild, you awaken the interests of the latent collectors (or poachers) in the audience. I would advise you not let this hold you back from doing what you are doing- it is something to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about how to present the problem (for instance, I personally would avoid talking about market values- for some people, the issues of conservation will quickly be eclipsed by the price tag). You might consider (given this issue), stressing why protecting native populations, instead of just species, is so important. When you protect populations, you are protecting not only a local biological legacy but also a larger degree of genetic diversity within the species.
3) Stating a problem and helping to raise awareness is good, but it is even better to state a problem and then offer a potential solution. Then everyone can participate in the conservation effort and take ownership of the solution to the problem. If I walked up to you and said "The humpback whales are disappearing from the oceans!" you would problably (not you personally, I am speaking hypothetically here) would think "Oh, that sucks" and then go on about your business. A few people might be inclined to do something but probably not many. Now if I said "The humpback whales are disappearing from the oceans, and one way to help would be to call your local legislator about a bill that would establish legal protection for them and create safe zones within their habitat thus limiting ....", now you have a concrete way of contributing to the solution and may be more inclined to help out.

I am sorry I cannot offer you more specific information, I do hope this helps you nonetheless.

You might consider contacting Barry Rice as well. He's a great guy and knows a lot more about these issues, I imagine he could point you in a pretty good direction.

[bouncingwatermelon]

Thank you very much.

As this program will be mainly targeting ordinary people who had no previous interest in plants or its trade, I do not expect too much people to come with their own concrete opinions. Even if they did, they may not speak of it (as according to Japanese culture). Indeed, I believe this lack of vocalism amongst plant enthusiasts has been one of the reasons immoral trade of wild plants has been rampant in Japan.

Also, this will not be done in debate form. I intend to use posters with pictures, videos, etc. I will have time to consider my vocabulary beforehand to make sure it is not offensive.

The idea that the 'rarity' of the plants will bring in more poachers is something we do not have to consider too much with the kind of audience I will be having. The audience consists mainly of families with a concrete source of income (not people without stable jobs and maybe looking for a way to earn money easy), busy with urban life, and will continue to not have much interest in plants because they are considered to be elderly peoples' hobbies. Having said that, I will make sure that the 'rarity' and 'high prices' part will be suppressed.

I intend to bring the conclusion of the whole thing to this: "customers who buy plants (or any other living thing) have the power of making choices that can bring about change". The problem of plant poaching (and harvesting of other wild creatures) is that the buyers are totally unaware of the way the merchandise are stocked. That is why they buy wild plants, and poachers continue to poach. By letting these potential customers know of the immorality of poaching, they might reconsider their choice when they are about to buy another 'rare wild' plant. Plant poachers can't sustain themselves if they are put off by customers, after all .

Thank you again, Coffea arabica.


If anybody else has any advice, please help me out! I'm also in need of any pictures or videos that may serve as evidence of the damaging effects of plant poaching. Again, this is something I cannot collect myself due to my occupation as a student, so please help.