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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 1, 2010 21:03:17 GMT
Dear forum,
Everytime I purchase Heliamphora and/or Nepenthes from Andreas Wistuba I have a lot of problems with the plants and most end up dieing. Some hang on for months, but eventually kick-the-bucket (die). Some of the neps live for years, but never grow right. Right now, I have N. rhombicaulis and another species I can't think of right now that just will not grow right, no pitchers and the leaves don't grow right and are often discolored and un-naturally wavy or bent.
When I trade for plants or buy them from USA sources, I have no trouble with the plants. Yet several did orignally come from Andreas, only several years back and have been divided since then...
Considering that Andreas is just about the only person on the planet offering these plants, well you can see how this has been rather frustrating for me... What can I do to help these plants recover after their long journey across the Atlantic?
I haven't purchased anything from Andreas in several years, after multiple failures, what's the point? I really doubt I'm the only person having this trouble... However, I would be happy to learn what is going on and how to prevent it so I may confidently purchase plants from him.
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Post by peterhewitt on Jul 2, 2010 9:40:12 GMT
I think the plants offered by Wistuba in the more expensive price ranges are invariably fresh out of flask, and are thus still heavily influenced by hormone load. The only thing i would suggest is to grow the plants extremely sheltered for a long time, in order to let the hormone levels dissipate in similar conditions to what the plants were being grown in, in the lab. Unfortunately some plants from TC never lose undesirable abnormalities. On the other hand these same abnormalities also give rise to all the Dionaea mutants we are seeing. My opinion.
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jeff
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by jeff on Jul 2, 2010 9:47:14 GMT
I can only speak of his Heliamphora I ordered from him since 1997,so far no problems. Since some problems appear, the size of mature plants ( may be a hormone problem) and also some mortality in the substrate that I use (peat-vermiculite only) but it may be my fault ;D for yours heliamphora what substrat use you ? what are your growing condition ? jeff
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 2, 2010 17:49:37 GMT
Standard highland conditions. I haven't had any trouble with any plants from BE, except for N. gymnamphora.
I'm growing N. rajah, N. glabrata, N. arsitolochioides, N. villosa, N. edwardsiana, N. hamata, N. lowii. Also, H. neblinae, H. pulchella, H. nutans from several locations. I have had plenty of success with seed grown plants, or I should say divisions from seed grown plants, but the only plant I've been successful at getting to grow from Wistuba are his two clones of H. heterodoxa, the one of the Great Savanna and the other from Ptari, which kind of looks like it has some influence from H. sarracenioides and might be a hybrid... It has taken some thing like three year for them to grow right, while all the other plants from that order have died.
My conditions are fine. I see a lot of people, especially in Europe have no trouble with Wistuba's plants, so I'm not really sure what my issue is...
Oh, the other Nepenthes I'm having trouble with is N. tentaculata; the leaves constantly display brown spots with a necrotic center.
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Post by peterhewitt on Jul 2, 2010 18:59:11 GMT
Dave are you growing N.Tentaculata as a highlander? or intermediate? I suspect that this species prefers quite warm temps. My N.Gymnamphora from BE is growing and pitchering well.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 2, 2010 20:30:48 GMT
Hmm, the warmer it gets, the worst it looks. Ditto for the N. rhombicaulis. Last summer they both died back to about three leaves and recovered somewhat over the winter.
While I am inclined to think the trouble with the heli's might be related to the TC protocol or shipping; I've had these two neps for years and they are both on their second and now starting their third rosettes. Something(s?) is(are?) wrong with them besides for 'needing some time to grow out of the TC.'
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Post by peterhewitt on Jul 2, 2010 22:27:38 GMT
Simple genetic mutation perhaps? In the case of the Heli's.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 2, 2010 23:21:31 GMT
The plants appeared normal and healthy when they were received, some were even rather large, with multiple side shoots. They were some really nice looking plants...
I took some cuttings off the really bushy ones, but even the cuttings eventually died too.
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Post by unstuckintime on Jul 3, 2010 0:47:42 GMT
Pathogens maybe? Not fungal, maybe bacterial? My logic is that TC conditions are sterile, of course, and even once they are out of TC they can be hardened off to whatever pathogens may be around. But Andreas Wistuba is across the pond, as it were, and while the plants could have been "hardened off" to whatever pathogens there may be over there, they aren't to the ones over here. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, since they can just "harden off" again, but perhaps when you add in the crippling stress of a transatlantic voyage it becomes too much?
Just a hypothesis. I suppose if it were true, however, you, Dave, would not be the only one effected....
CJ
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 3, 2010 2:36:51 GMT
Perhaps I'm not, but other people buy a plant or two and they die, but the grower might thinks it was something they did... Not provide the best conditions, ect...
I purchased a series of plants and have done so several other times as part of Dangerous Plants. We import plants on a semi-regular basis. The last order from Wistuba was a near complete loss, we're talking several hundred dollars worth of plants.
CJ, there might be something to your idea. And no, the pathogens are not the same in New Jersey as those in California or whatever different area, county, ect...
Time to try some beneficial fungus or some other type of beneficial microbe?
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Post by andreaswistuba on Jul 3, 2010 6:44:39 GMT
I haven't purchased anything from Andreas in several years, after multiple failures, what's the point? I really doubt I'm the only person having this trouble... However, I would be happy to learn what is going on and how to prevent it so I may confidently purchase plants from him. Dear Dave, to be honest, I'm quite surprised not to get a complaint and then read this post, just by chance. Just a thought: I'm in the business since more than 20 years (longer than most others!) and if there was a general issue with my plants I'd be out of business very very quickly, believe me. Most of my customers are long time customers who would certainly alert if there were any issues. While I do not know about your growing conditions, I'm sure you provide correct highland climate for Heliamphora and highland Nepenthes. If there are any doubts on temperature and media, I'm ready to assist. While I was doing a lot of cultivation under artificial lights some years back (you had to be a little careful when placing them in rough greenhouse conditions without adaptation), all plants come from greenhouses now where they sit for several months before sale. I'd call them very hardy as I try to shade as little as possible. One general fact with USA-imports is that USDA requires plants to be free of substrate. Of cause a Heliamphora that has been unpotted and washed needs to be cared for with higher humidity for a while. Nepenthes rhombicaulis is weedy here - no issues with leaf-damages. However, if you have wavy discolored leaves, I'd suspect a mite infestation. They can cause problems like the ones you describe. Which Heliamphora species you had problems with? BTW, in my database I see one single Heliamphora order from Dangerous plants, which was back in 2005. Some of the plants in this order were replaced free of charge but there was neither a further Heliamphora order, nor a further complaint, from what I can see. All the best Andreas P.S. I'm very willing to help sorting out issues, but if I'm not notified about an issue, there is little I can do.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 3, 2010 16:57:38 GMT
Dear Andreas, I do not know what is the issue(s). I'm trying to figure it out. I do not think all, or even most, of the issues I'm having started with your facility, so I'm not sure what you might do for in this case... Dangerous Plants has placed several orders with you, as have I personally. I have order from your a couple of times over the years. I have also purchased plants in person So I don't hold you to account on this, but I just want to be able to order plants, and have confidence I'll be able to keep them alive when I receive them. I can post some photos of the Nepenthes if that might help ID the issue(s).
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Post by bigbella on Jul 3, 2010 18:34:21 GMT
I haven't purchased anything from Andreas in several years, after multiple failures, what's the point? I really doubt I'm the only person having this trouble... However, I would be happy to learn what is going on and how to prevent it so I may confidently purchase plants from him. Virtually all of the "newer" Heliamphora species I have came from Wistuba or indirectly through an occasional, though rare US seller -- so too my first highland Nepenthes years back; and I have never experienced a loss in all of the years that I have dealt with him. Virtually all of my original plants have reached flowering adulthood (though I am hoping that H. elongata will produce mature pitchers while I still have my original teeth).
In fact, one of the plants -- originally from Wistuba stock years back -- is my currently flowering H. nutans "Giant," (among several others) which was quite tiny upon arrival -- not so now; and several divisions have been made of it over the years and fairly widely distributed.
Upon receipt of any shipment, I immediately pot them and place them in a large seed tray with a tall "humidity dome" under highland conditions. Outside of a week or so, I slowly acclimate them to more exposure; in less than a month, I generally see new growth.
I honestly wonder whether the plants were kept under too warm of conditions; that is one of the issues that some fellow growers have had with young TC plants . . .
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 4, 2010 0:58:49 GMT
Upon receipt of any shipment, I immediately pot them and place them in a large seed tray with a tall "humidity dome" under highland conditions. Outside of a week or so, I slowly acclimate them to more exposure; in less than a month, I generally see new growth. I honestly wonder whether the plants were kept under too warm of conditions; that is one of the issues that some fellow growers have had with young TC plants . . . You've very accurately described my general experience and methods. I did see new growth on most plants, at at least two or three leaves grew, some plants were even getting larger, then they slowed down and 'crapped out' for lack of a better term... But I don't understand how if there was a problem my cultivation, why would plants I've had for over ten years remain unaffected when they were growing in the same conditions and some in the same trays commingled?
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kby
Full Member
Posts: 162
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Post by kby on Jul 5, 2010 8:04:33 GMT
Well, I can only speak for myself, of course. I've placed several orders going back to 1995 or so, usually about 1-2 a year (due to job situation, it's been scarcer). My major problem is I might get the to adapt and even grow well for a while, but then we'll usually have a hot spell or something else. I've gradually refined conditions so that isn't as much a problem, still, it's not as good as I'd like.
However, there are some issues which I wonder about. Since, as you point out, Andreas is a sole source for many things, it's hard to compare, but here's my usual experience:
1. If the plants are larger (I've gotten some really nice ones), stage 3 (adult pitchers), and there's no "disaster" I'll be able to keep the plant growing, including adult pitchers, in all liklihood. The longest growing hybrid I've had (originally was supposed to be H. heterodoxa but turns out to be hetero x ionassi), is quite large (9" pot) and I've had it for maybe 15 years. I have a nice H. minor, but it's not huge, H. chimantensis, and about a half-dozen others for a few years and they are able to produce adult pitchers continuously at varying rates unless there's a sudden change.
On the other hand, I've had a clump of H. ionassi for about 7 years now, and, whereas it's quite large with multiple crowns (just moved it also to a 9" which it fills the surface of), good color, etc., it has never produced an adult pitcher nor shown any inclination to do so. I've always assumed the constant multiplication of crowns is a TC effect, but I sure don't know how long it lasts. I can't recall if I've successfully seen a plant not sold as having adult pitchers (or which clearly had them when it arrived) make the transition successfully in many years (the champion at the moment being the ionassi above). Smaller ones sold as such (clearly have had adult pitchers but don't produce them immediately on arrival) usually eventually grow adult pitchers, again, as long as there's no "disaster" that happens. These are all in the same tank under the same lights.
The one I have never been able to keep is H. hispida. Others I've at least see recover and begin growing.
One issue I have is that, if one is looking for the new stuff, you need to order early, but that means the shipment comes in June, just as things get hot here. I usually have better fortune establishing them over the winter when things are cooler. I've considered asking for the shipment to be held until then, but so far have not done that. This year's shipment seems to for the most part be recovering and doing OK; it's not been really hot yet.
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