andreamigos
Full Member
La bellezza non rende felice colui che la possiede, ma colui che la può amare e desiderare. H.Hesse
Posts: 3
|
Post by andreamigos on Nov 9, 2009 12:32:41 GMT
Hello friends My name is Andrea, I have 38 years and are Italian. Cultivate carnivorous plants for many years, since my childhood! I have a fairly complete collection, but I'm desperately trying really hard to find a plant, " Sarracenia purpurea ssp.purpurea f.veinless" Some of you can help me in this quest! Thanks a lot! AndreA www.aipcnet.it/blog?plog=8cephalotus@libero.it
|
|
|
Post by Dave Evans on Nov 9, 2009 17:52:30 GMT
AFAIK,
It might be available via heterozygous seed, but I don't know who has plants available...
RE: Sarracenia purpurea (veinless, Great Lakes area).
|
|
andreamigos
Full Member
La bellezza non rende felice colui che la possiede, ma colui che la può amare e desiderare. H.Hesse
Posts: 3
|
Post by andreamigos on Nov 10, 2009 8:09:53 GMT
Thanks Dave, I had already thought of doing so, it seems really impossible to find this plant! The lists of cultivation is very rare! Thanks again. AndreA www.aipcnet.it/blog?plog=8
|
|
|
Post by gardenofeden on Nov 10, 2009 20:19:09 GMT
do you mean 'veinless variant', green pitchers and red flowers. It is not that uncommon in European collections. I grow it, as do others. It is quite common in plants originating from naturalised purpurea in Ireland.
|
|
|
Post by meadowview on Nov 11, 2009 13:44:41 GMT
Hi Garden of Eden:
Are you sure you have true veinless plants and not shade grown Sarracenia purpurea? The veinless form is a yellowish-green in full sun. There are some morphs of S. purpurea that don't produce a lot of colored veins but they are not the same entity as "veinless".
We do have the true veinless form and could produce a controlled pollination for our Italian friends if needed. Please contact me privately at meadowview@pitcherplant.org to discuss.
Sincerely,
Phil Sheridan Meadowview
|
|
|
Post by purpman on Nov 14, 2009 1:04:54 GMT
|
|
|
Post by gardenofeden on Nov 14, 2009 12:56:55 GMT
Hi Garden of Eden: Are you sure you have true veinless plants and not shade grown Sarracenia purpurea? The veinless form is a yellowish-green in full sun. There are some morphs of S. purpurea that don't produce a lot of colored veins but they are not the same entity as "veinless". We do have the true veinless form and could produce a controlled pollination for our Italian friends if needed. Please contact me privately at meadowview@pitcherplant.org to discuss. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview Phil, yes, quite sure. It is completely green, no veins, gets a pink blush sometimes over winter, red flowers. Came from naturalised stock in Roscommon, Ireland, here's a pic. I've been growing it for about 24 years this next photo shows the pink/orangy blush it can get on the outside of older pitchers, especially in winter
|
|
|
Post by meadowview on Nov 14, 2009 15:26:49 GMT
Hi Carl and Garden of Eden:
Carl, great field shots! It looks like some of your pitchers in the field are being parasitized by Xyra larva (not sealed pitchers). Did you observe this. You also clearly have the fungal infection in the field too.
Garden of Eden. Great photo. Do you know where the Irish plants originally came from? It sure looks like you have the veinless form.
Sincerely,
Phil Sheridan Meadowview
|
|
|
Post by gardenofeden on Nov 14, 2009 18:34:56 GMT
Phil, I heard that the Roscommon plants were from Canadian stock originally, that's as much as I know....
|
|
|
Post by Aidan on Nov 14, 2009 23:30:58 GMT
It is documented that the naturalised Irish plants were introduced by way of Canadian seed and rootstock in 1906.
|
|
|
Post by purpman on Nov 15, 2009 22:11:06 GMT
Interesting. Are there any f. heterophylla plants in the Irish plants? or just the veinless type?
|
|
andreamigos
Full Member
La bellezza non rende felice colui che la possiede, ma colui che la può amare e desiderare. H.Hesse
Posts: 3
|
Post by andreamigos on Nov 18, 2009 9:00:16 GMT
I love these discussions! I'm happy to have opened a topic so interesting!
You are great!
AndreAmici
|
|
|
Post by gardenofeden on Nov 18, 2009 13:06:10 GMT
Interesting. Are there any f. heterophylla plants in the Irish plants? or just the veinless type? Having never visited, I can only refer to plants I have seen in cultivation derived from this location which are "typical" venation and 'veinless variant'.
|
|
|
Post by meadowview on Nov 18, 2009 15:23:04 GMT
Hi Carl:
The presence of veinless S. purpurea plants in Europe, and the absence of green anthocyanin-free plants, supports my contention that this is a separate mutation unrelated to anthocyanin-free plants. I'm not trying to start something here but just want to point out this important detail.
Also, we have the results of our controlled cross pollination of S. purpurea heterophylla with the Ontario veinless form. All seedlings in the F1 generation are red. I can predict that when we raise these plants and cross them we will get 1/4 anthocyanin-free plants. In essence, the veinless form of S. purpurea has similarity to S. flava maxima - we don't get anthocyanin free plants from S. flava maxima (unless of course it carried the green allele - but that again would be an independent trait).
Best,
Phil
|
|
|
Post by purpman on Nov 20, 2009 23:31:57 GMT
Don't worry Phil, you're not starting anything :-) What really needs be done is a lot of experimentation. Unfortunately, I don't have the space here to do such an extensive breeding program. All I have is field observations. Its also not to say that the original seed material didn't come from a bog that contained veinless and f. heterophylla plants here in Canada. If that were the case some of these seeds may have the genetic material needed to form a veinless plant.
As I've mentioned, I've only seen these 'veinless' plants in company of f. heterophylla. Another chap, I don't remember his name, contacted me a few years back to mention that he found these wonderful pinkish veinless plants growing in a bog in upper michigan and it that situation he noted that f. heterophylla was present. Maybe its just a crazy coincidence... who knows? It like how many licks it takes to get the center of a tootsie pop LOL.
I'm curious what would happen to the flowers of F1 hybrids of f. heterophylla and a typical purpurea. By the "rules" they should be typical plants with typical flowers I assume. But what would happen with constant introgression? Interestingly, many of the veinless plants have flowers that are all over the spectrum from dark burgundy like the typical plants, to pink, to sort of orangish and some with streaks of maroon on a yellow petal! If these plants are not a result of introgression, then they certainly have some interesting genetics going on!
Hopefully someone someday will try some breeding to see what happens. I'd cross all the types, Typical (t), veinless (v) and f. heterophylla (h) for a few generations and in many different combinations to see what happens
t x h h x t v x t t x v h x v v x h
for starters
then setup for f1 crosses from the above to cover all the combinations. This project would grow exponentially!. Another problem too is that you'd have to grow the plants to at least a juvenile plant. You simply can't see a red seedling and assume it's typical. Like with f. maxima, they come up red, its not until they are a couple of years old that you can say with any confidence that its "veinless". I certainly don't have the time, resources, or the gumption to undertake such a breeding program.
I really don't think this is a simple of t x h then crossing the f1's and getting 1/4 h and the rest t. I think there are very complex crosses that have happened, and then out of those crosses and/mutations, nature naturally selected the veinless form in these localities.
I think Phil, you told me that the AF jonesii caught more prey than the red form. This might explain why in the bogs where these veinless mutants are found they are so prolific, maybe its naturally selected for this coloration because its more effective at catching food... Like I said, God only knows.
But great topic!
Carl
|
|