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Post by ICPS-bob on Feb 4, 2009 22:28:33 GMT
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taz6122
Full Member
Yesterday is History.Tomorrow is a Mystery and Today is a Gift.Thats why we call it the Present.
Posts: 289
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Post by taz6122 on Feb 5, 2009 0:44:02 GMT
Wow...very unique plant. I've often wondered if the cupped trap is as functional at catching it's prey as the normal Dionaea trap
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Post by Aidan on Feb 5, 2009 1:03:13 GMT
'Cupped Trap' does indeed catch quite well and 'Kinchyaku' is not dissimilar in structure
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Post by stevestewart on Feb 5, 2009 13:11:02 GMT
'Cupped Trap' does indeed catch quite well and 'Kinchyaku' is not dissimilar in structure Unless the marginal cilia of Dionaea 'Kinchyaku' do not show circinate growth form when the traps are opening, or the traps do not close, I can see no significant difference between this cultivar and Dionaea 'Cupped Trap'. It seems to me that Dionaea 'Kinchyaku' deserves priority, from my understanding of the cultivar naming rules, as it was published first. Take care, Steven Stewart
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Post by mmlr38 on Feb 7, 2009 15:57:22 GMT
I agree with Steven. When I initially saw this photo, I couldn't see any noticeable difference between Dionaea 'Kinchyaku' and Dionaea 'Cupped Trap'. Does anyone know if there is a difference between the two plants?
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Post by guillaume on Feb 10, 2009 13:24:25 GMT
Just a cupped trap to me, why people always want to give new name to vft who looks like another cultivar?
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Post by Dave Evans on Feb 11, 2009 3:41:16 GMT
ah, what does "Kinchyaku" mean?
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sweetpea
Full Member
MOLLIE RILSTONE
Posts: 163
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Post by sweetpea on Feb 11, 2009 4:27:18 GMT
ah, what does "Kinchyaku" mean? Konnichiwa Dave-san, "Kinchyaku" means "Purse","Money pouch". A bit oldish Japanese.
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Post by stevestewart on Feb 11, 2009 13:59:12 GMT
Just a cupped trap to me, why people always want to give new name to vft who looks like another cultivar? guillaume, I only submitted the cultivar name of this Dionaea to the ICPS because I noticed a great number of bogus names were being used to sell this cultivar multiple times to unwitting buyers. I wanted to "fix" it with an officially published cultivar name. I did not know it had been published in Japan under the name Dionaea 'Kinchyaku'. I did in fact contact a number of authorities and collectors to find out if anyone else had expressed a desire to publish a description of this plant under any name prior to my submitting my written description and photographs. None were known to the people I asked. If anyone is guilty of giving this plant a new name it is in fact me, and that is why I think the name Dionaea 'Kinchyaku' should be the name this cultivar goes by. I just feel bad for the businesses that have had large numbers of labels printed, and now feel a need to redo their labels. It would be best if collectors that want to purchase this cultivar, would be patient with producers and re-label their plants themselves until a time when new labels are printed. Take care, Steven Stewart
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Post by Not a Number on Feb 11, 2009 15:31:17 GMT
This is the entry in the Carnivorous Plant Database N: $[Dionaea ' Kinchyaku ' {K.Kondo}] P: Proc.4.Intl.Carniv.Pl.Conf.Tokyo:inside fron cover (2002) S: =[Dionaea muscipula {Soland. ex Ellis}] HC: name not registered with ICRA B: K.Kondo, Hiroshima, JP, 1999 Nominant: K.Kondo Description: Proc.4.Intl.Carniv.Pl.Conf.Tokyo:inside fron cover (2002)
"[Dionaea ' Kinchyaku ' {K.Kondo}] (=means purse), which has imperfect trap closure but somewhat quite similar to [Drosera {L.}] trap movement, was produced by Katsuhiko Kondo using a gene engineering in vitro condition in 1999 and is now under mass propagation."
Standard: Proc.4.Intl.Carniv.Pl.Conf.Tokyo:back cover (2002) Etymology: after the trap shape Steve, what was the origin of the plant you used to register the cultivar 'Cupped Trap'? I was under the impression that it was a Tissue Culture sport. BTW one online vendor is selling a "Clamshell" which looks like 'Kinchyaku'/'Cupped Trap' to me.
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Post by BarryRice on Feb 11, 2009 18:53:49 GMT
This is an interesting turn of events.
First of all, I do not think that Steven should feel he should take the blame for anything. He did a good deed, by getting a name on a plant name that---as far as he could tell---had not been registered.
Now, here is some legalese in the cultivar world, as far as I understand it....
1)There is no doubt that Kondo's name, "Kinchyaku", was published before the 'Cupped Traps' epithet. By identifying such as plant as unique, and by publishing a photograph of the plant, Kondo was well on the path to establishing a cultivar name for the plant.
2)The other crucial portion of a cultivar description is a published summary of what makes the cultivar distinct from other cultivars. The text in Jan's db, presumably from the conference proceedings, is entirely inadequate for this purpose (the only relevent text being "which has imperfect trap closure but somewhat quite similar to Drosera L. trap movement").
3)EVEN if Jan deems the cultivar description to be adequate, the author did not submit the cultivar name for registration. This is a crucial step in the establishment of the name. Those who publish their articles in CPN have their cultivar names submitted automatically, by the way. However, this does not extend to other publications, such as that journal proceedings.
So....in summary, we have a situation where Steven published a valid description of a cultivar and established a cultivar name for it. He was unaware that Kondo was using an unestablished name for the same plant.
If Steven or I had known about the Kondo publication, no doubt we would have encouraged Kondo (or Kondo and Steven together) to publish a more complete description, and to register the name.
However, the fact remains that we did not. And the fact also remains that "Kinchyaku" remains a nomen nudem, so it would be incorrect to say that we should step backwards and use "Kinchyaku" as the name for this plant. "Kinchyaku" has no more validity than any other informal, unestablished name.
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Post by Dave Evans on Feb 11, 2009 22:25:40 GMT
Thank-you Sweetpea. Stephen, I don't think there is much of an issue here... First, did Kondo even "intend" for this to be the official name for the plant? That should be found out first. Maybe that was just a nickname... I don't think I would want to put any money in that purse
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Post by Aidan on Feb 12, 2009 0:56:26 GMT
Time to play Devil's Advocate. My understanding of the situation differs from Barry's...
Registration with the appropriate ICRA (in this case the ICPS) is not required in order to legitimately establish a cultivar name. The preferred situation may be to follow that path, but it is not a requirement under the ICNCP rules. A one line description published in a catalogue is sufficient to establish a name. With 'Kinchyaku' we apparently have a published description as quoted in the database and a published photograph. This more than meets the requirements and the cultivar name is therefore legitimately established.
At the moment it would appear that we are dealing with two clones -
If the plants are identical or indistinguishable, then 'Kinchyaku' takes precedence as the first published name.
If the plants are distinguishable and we have too little information to be certain at this point, then both names are validly established.
Therefore, until such time as it may be determined whether or not the plants are distinguishable from one another, both 'Kinchyaku' and 'Cupped Trap' should be considered legitimately established.
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Post by stevestewart on Feb 13, 2009 22:16:24 GMT
"[Dionaea ' Kinchyaku ' {K.Kondo}] (=means purse), which has imperfect trap closure but somewhat quite similar to [Drosera {L.}] trap movement, was produced by Katsuhiko Kondo using a gene engineering in vitro condition in 1999 and is now under mass propagation." Standard: Proc.4.Intl.Carniv.Pl.Conf.Tokyo:back cover (2002) Etymology: after the trap shape [/blockquote] Steve, what was the origin of the plant you used to register the cultivar 'Cupped Trap'? I was under the impression that it was a Tissue Culture sport. BTW one online vendor is selling a "Clamshell" which looks like 'Kinchyaku'/'Cupped Trap' to me.[/quote] It is interesting that this Dionaea muscipula mutation was noticed and isolated at Agri Starts III in or before 1998. If K. Kondo's dates are correct in his description, this would mean that there is more than one clone going around. I grew a large number of Tc D. muscipula in 1998-2000, and was surprised at the variety. I wanted only plants that look like the "new" cultivar Dionaea 'B52' (at that time non existent). When I first saw the 'Dentate'/'Dente' and 'Akai Ryu' and 'Cupped Trap' type plants, I knew that purchasers would want qualities that each type offered mixed in one way or another. I did have what I called "clamshell" types that I kept on my cull bench with the others. These plants were fused at their distal end as the 'Cupped Trap' but with the 'Dentate' form marginal cilia. Unfortunately I was giving my cull plants to visitors and "non profit" gift shops in the area, thinking only of the space that they were taking up in my greenhouse. I have not seen what I called a "clamshell" form Dionaea in many years other than in name. Dave, I agree, I will not be putting any money into the "purse" form Dionaea. But I could probably be convinced to buy a true form of "clamshell"! It's a disease. ;D Take care, Steven Stewart
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Post by Not a Number on Feb 14, 2009 0:54:11 GMT
Sarracenia Northwest was selling a "clamshell". The plants pictured had typical teeth/cilia. Another LACPS member had purchased one. I didn't notice anything much different from 'Cupped Trap' Sarracenia Northwest appears to have deleted "clamshell" from their catalog. A Google cached page can be found here (long URL, you may have to cut and paste the pieces together). I'll leave off the http tag in the beginning: 209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pDsXPz_EEXEJ:cobraplant.com/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dproduct_info%26products_id%3D68ADMIN NOTE: I fixed the URL by using the URL tag (which is the button that looks like the earth)
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