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Post by justjack on Nov 21, 2008 0:17:05 GMT
Just gave in and bid on a Viking from Thailand. I'm nervous about it and would like to ask for advice. There is two options for mail. 3-5 days $38 10-15 days $15 For phyto-sanitary certificate cost is $10. Seller was Siam-cat shop.
Thanks in advance, Jack
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Post by Aidan on Nov 21, 2008 2:42:45 GMT
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Post by justjack on Nov 22, 2008 0:08:33 GMT
Ouch. Seems a tad harsh response.
So obviously I've done something wrong buying this plant?
I'm hoping for a little helpful advice on how I should proceed seeing I've won the bid.
Justme.
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Post by ztl850730 on Nov 22, 2008 6:52:08 GMT
that's really very difficult.good luck!
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Post by gardenofeden on Nov 22, 2008 11:40:17 GMT
Aidan's response is spot on.
To import Nepenthes you need: phytosanitary certificate CITES permit a speedy post service
Youe need to plan well in advance and get your permits sorted before you import, CITES permits can take a long time.
your customs are likely to destroy plants sent without the correct documentation and you may be open to prosecution.
Additionally, lowland species are sensitive to the cold and are best imported during summer months only otherwise are unlikely to survive.
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Post by justjack on Nov 22, 2008 19:56:12 GMT
Wow! How interesting. So didn't really tell the whole forum but my first attempt at this died on me. Yeah, that's right my plant suffered and died under my care, great to tell everyone that... (sigh). But just as promised it was shipped strait to my door. I thought e-bay was fairly legit and this seller is really noticeable, high profile and reputable. Nothing seems shady about it. Not all Neps are scheduled as endangered as far as I know. So would they all fall under cites regulations?
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Post by gardenofeden on Nov 22, 2008 20:17:46 GMT
ALL Nepenthes are CITES listed
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Post by Aidan on Nov 22, 2008 21:19:28 GMT
I thought e-bay was fairly legit and this seller is really noticeable, high profile and reputable. Sorry, but that is being naive. eBay facilitates vast numbers of illicit trades every single day and plants are no exception. As an active eBay seller I go out of my way to advise potential buyers of the requirements for international plant sales. The following statement is prominently displayed on my eBay pages - I could ship plants outside of EU by declaring them as say "Tractor spares", but I don't... Yes, you may illegally (and ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law) purchase plants internationally and sometimes they will arrive and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they will simply be stopped and incinerated by Customs, or as has been known to happen in the past - you could end up with a $10,000 fine and/or the threat of jail time. CITES is widely held to be imperfect, but it is there for a purpose - in order to regulate trade in endangered species.
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Post by justjack on Nov 22, 2008 23:12:33 GMT
Quote: Be wary of vendors offering to ship plants worldwide and confirm that all necessary documentation is provided before buying.
This is somewhat frustrating advice. How about also stating what documentation? Phytosan. cert. and the export license? Any other documents? So far that's two. The cert is only $10.
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Post by justjack on Nov 22, 2008 23:14:29 GMT
This is so much more headache than I expected.
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Post by killerplants on Nov 23, 2008 17:53:54 GMT
Okay, you need two permits to import Nepenthes. The 587 and 621. The 621 is $70 for two years and allows you to import CITES plants. The 587 is the plant importation permit that includes the yellow/green stickers that are supposed to be on the outside of your shipped package. I got my 621 online in eight days. I already had the 587 via the mail.
"I could ship plants outside of EU by declaring them as say "Tractor spares", but I don't...
Yes, you may illegally (and ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law) purchase plants internationally and sometimes they will arrive and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they will simply be stopped and incinerated by Customs, or as has been known to happen in the past - you could end up with a $10,000 fine and/or the threat of jail time."
Boy Aidan, you are spot on! This is my claim to fame in the cp community. Five or so years ago, I tried to import some plants from a guy in Malaysia. It was some mature large red sanguinea and ramispina from "a local nursery." When you get a 587, you need to state which ports you want to try and use from their list. I did not, so did not get the stickers. I then called and the stickers were being mailed. I had already had the permit when I bought the plants-just not the stickers. While I was waiting for them, the seller got impatient and shipped them, marking them as "Children's Toys." They got discovered in Indianapolis(sniffed out by beagles, lol, which I have one), and destroyed. They also had some bugs they found. I got visted by the USDA(at work, no less), showed them my permit, explained what happened and they went on their merry way. No problem, right? WRONG! I got a letter saying I was being fined for $2500 for smuggling. I called both agents to ask how this was possible. One thought I had a good case, the other thought I had no leg to stand on. Anyway, since I intiated the movement of the plants to the US, I was considered a smuggler(since the seller lied). I talked to my lawyer, and he said to research the case, etc, it would cost at least as much as $2500. I was going to defend myself, but as Aidan said, I discovered if the judge did not see things my way, he/she could raise the fine up to $10,000! So I paid the $2500. If the USDA would find the plant, I would guess(unless the vendor lies) that nothing this severe would happen, but that's just a guess. This person sells a lot on eBay. I would ask him to hold it and get the documentation.
Cheers,
Joe
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Post by justjack on Nov 23, 2008 21:17:41 GMT
Thanks Joe, and Aidan.
My troubles should be good learning material for others. Do you have a link or should I google "cites permits" to get info on obtaining these. Do you recall how much the 587 was? (so sounds like lines from dragnet) If I get these permits can I co-op with other interested buyers, essentialy becoming their middle man? Just a curiosity kinda thing.
$2500 - $10,000! Thanks for the the whole story on this. I wonder if I can just pay the $6.50 and tell him to keep it?
Thanks, Jack
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Post by killerplants on Nov 23, 2008 23:40:21 GMT
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Post by sunbelle on Nov 24, 2008 20:12:55 GMT
The CITES permit is issued at the vendor's side of the transaction (place of origin). If your order is greater than $1000, you will be dealing with US Customs, and will need a broker. Welcome to the arcane world of importing plants. I've actually lost sleep over large orders coming in.
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Post by Dave Evans on Nov 25, 2008 3:07:47 GMT
Hello Joe,
I as fast as I can tell the US government now owes you all your money back and the folks handling the prosecution of your case should be reprimanded and/or fired. This situation is ridiculous.
Fix CITES, or don't enforce. Period.
Also, the information about the Time period for the permit is not correct, it is now five years, but if you ask the folks who work at APHIS and/or Homeland Security, they don't know this fact... So I have got to wonder, who is making up these rules?
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