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Post by gardenofeden on Jun 6, 2008 12:50:54 GMT
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Post by jj1109 on Jun 6, 2008 14:01:49 GMT
check ICPS-Bob's message here. He confirms exactly what you've said
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Post by Not a Number on Jun 6, 2008 15:40:50 GMT
The "blushing bride" clones of 'Justina Davis' are a bit of a mystery as they were cloned via Tissue Culture from material supplied by Barry Rice from the plants in his collection.
I have several of these clones and all of them except the largest show the "blush". The strange thing is that the large plant has (as often happens with Tissue Culture) two or three smaller rhizomes fused to the large rhizome. The smaller plants show the blush - the largest does not.
I have a second pot of 3 or 4 small clones which all show the blush.
When I put the first pot out into full sun the plants reacted badly and all the leaves yellowed blackened in a short period of time. For nearly two months after this it produced deformed leaves with a faint trace of blush in all plants. When the large plant started growing normal leaves there has been no trace of blush since. I've examined the leaves under 20x magnification.
The implication to me is that the anthcyanin producing gene is suppressed and not absent in these plants. Either the tissue culture process somehow activated the gene or perhaps the gene turns off as the plants mature. The large plant is probably equivalent in size to a 4-5 year old seed grown plant - the smaller ones equivalent ins size to 2-3 year old seedlings.
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Post by BarryRice on Jun 6, 2008 17:32:36 GMT
Hey Folks, I'm fascinated by this whole 'Justina Davis' phenomenon. Here's the skinny. I grow lots and lots of Dionaea clones, a number of which were sent to me as "green" clones, and so on. A small fraction of my Dionaea collection can be seen here. I grow these plants under 6 fluorescent bulbs, and as you can see, they've got great color. In the middle of the photograph above, you can see two pots of 'Justina Davis.' They never, ever, ever show any red, rose, or pink pigmentation. If you see any pigmentation in the plants above, that is due to old leaves browning. Here are a few more photos of 'Justina Davis' in my cultivation: www.sarracenia.com/photos/dionaea/dmusc037.jpgwww.sarracenia.com/photos/dionaea/dmusc125.jpgwww.sarracenia.com/photos/dionaea/dmusc039.jpgIn my cultivation, these plants have the same electric green appearance as anthocyanin free Sarracenia, while all my other Dionaea are nicely colored, as you can see in my photogallery, starting with this page: www.sarracenia.com/galleria/g213.html. A few years ago I provided flower stalks of 'Justina Davis' to David Connor, who is doing a bang-up job TCing Dionaea from flower stalks. There is no question that the plants that resulted from David's TC work have a clear pink blush to the traps, and do not at all conform to my notion (as published) of 'Justina Davis.' So what happened? One of three things. 1)The leading theory is that a pink-blush, tissue culture sport emerged in David's TC work, and the cells in that TC sport out-competed the cells of the all-green 'Justina Davis' cells. Could be...I don't know enough about TC to judge the merit of this theory. 2)It could be that my 'Justina Davis' does clone has some pink color to it, which has to date eluded me, and that can be brought out in the correct cultivation. A related theory is that 'Justina Davis' has pink color only as a juvenile. 3)It could be that David messed up and mixed up his cultures. David is very careful, though, and I tend to discount this theory. This winter, David gave to me a very pinkish-colored plant from the 'Justina Davis' sample in his collection. I have this in my terrarium, next to my green 'Justina Davis' plants, and will watch it over the next year. If it stays pink, that may argue for theory #1. If it becomes green, that would be consistent with both theory #1 and theory #2. Another experiment will be to propagate my Justina Davis clones by the conventional, leaf cutting or division method and then give that to someone who has pink-blush plants. It would be interesting to observe whether or not my all-green plants develop a pink color in those conditions. All very interesting! Barry
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Post by Not a Number on Jun 6, 2008 19:38:35 GMT
I lean towards the "maturation" theory but only because I have the one plant which happens to be of a mature size and has been "blush" free except when it was growing deformed leaves. The "blush" in this case may well have been just browning as the traps would start to die before even fully opening.
Wehn I first reported the blush to David he was very skeptical until I was finally able to get a photograph of a trap showing the pink. I wondered if the mother plant was actually "Burbank's Best" or some similar "green" variety that has seasonally redness. When he told me the source of the material I could understand his inital skepticism. After seeing the photograph David examined his clones and found a few with the blush.
I was conjecturing that a good test of the maturation theory would be to take a pulling or division of the mother plant and see what it does. Growing pullings in both the non-pink and pink environments would be even better.
I'd be willing to volunteer although my two or three attempts at pullings have be unsuccessful. There's plenty of room in my outdoor trays that I could grow them side-by-side with my "blushing brides".
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Post by jj1109 on Jun 6, 2008 22:34:48 GMT
i think what we need here is some genetic markers, so we can identify these different clones definitively!
what we need to remember is that tissue culture doesn't necessarily provide the same growing conditions as in a pot - it may be simply that a very tiny amount of something is absent in TC, which causes the gene(s) regulating the colour development to switch on. as full colour doesn't develop, i'd suggest the gene still isn't performing the same way as a full-coloured non-justina davis clone does.
WRT growing in TC, I just read a piece of literature that showed a Drosera (possiblyl capensis, but I forget) produced less plumbago in vitro than when grown in pot - obviously something different!
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Post by BarryRice on Jun 7, 2008 0:29:39 GMT
You bring up something else. I'm often confused when people tell me that the non-cultivar "Burbank's Best" is green. I've gotten a few specimens of this plant, and in my brightly lit conditions they color up quite nicely: These are supposedly green? Weird.
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kby
Full Member
Posts: 162
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Post by kby on Jun 7, 2008 7:39:13 GMT
I will also confirm pretty much what has been observed. I received some "Justina Davis" as a bonus when I ordered some B52's last year. I noticed this year that, as Not a Number points out, that younger smaller traps tend to have the faint blush whereas larger traps from perhaps a different plant but in the same clump, do not. Mine are outside getting full sun part of the day and open shade the rest, and in the Los Angeles area. Mine don't even age red as far as I've seen; one is very yellow with black edges as it dies.
By contrast I have a couple of different Akai Ryu's and they are pretty red this year side by side with Justina. Except that after flowering and an early short heat wave, some of the new leaves got their tips blasted black before unfolding (odd as that didn't happen with non-Akai-Ryu's in the same area, including Justina, and the Akai's are from different sources)-kby
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Post by gardenofeden on Jun 7, 2008 10:17:13 GMT
my best green clone is this plant: it has a slight pink blush to new traps early season. As summer progresses new traps open pure green. It is however not 'Justina Davis', because of the pink blush.
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Post by Brian Barnes on Jun 8, 2008 1:09:30 GMT
Steve Stewart and myself have sown seed of Dionaea muscipula 'Justina Davis' and the seedlings of course vary in coloration from the yellowish-green to the pinkish hue present in the traps while being grown in brightly lit conditions. Of course, these plants will never be distributed or traded by either of us as 'Justina Davis' clones... I'm starting to wonder if someone along the line has germinated seedlings, grew them to a certain size, then distributed them as the antho-free variety. I theorize this could be possible, especially if all of the seedlings were grown in low-light conditions, making difference in coloration amongst propagules non-apparent. Possibility? Happy Growing, Brian.
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Post by gardenofeden on Jun 8, 2008 21:00:06 GMT
aaaah...but if they are pure green with no pigmentation in the leaves then they ARE 'Justina Davis', regardless of the origins....
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Post by stevestewart on Jun 9, 2008 11:33:06 GMT
aaaah...but if they are pure green with no pigmentation in the leaves then they ARE 'Justina Davis', regardless of the origins.... Unless an individual plant has distinguishable and abnormally enormous or miniature size, triangular, fused or otherwise deformed trap cilia, cupped traps... I'm opening an offshore bank account just in case! Take care, Steven Stewart
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brad
Full Member
Posts: 7
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Post by brad on Jun 14, 2008 18:26:09 GMT
Here is an excerpt from August 2007 that I wrote regarding All Green VFT, All Red VFT, and Giant VFT in the CPUK fourms.
"Every VFT grower knows, that each VFT grows differently year to year. They are not always consistent. Some years they are redder in color, some years they are lighter, that goes for All Red VFT too. Some years the traps are a bit bigger, some years they grow a bit more upright, any trait you observe can vary over time. The biggest factor being the exact growing conditions are impossible to keep exact.
If you grow your special VFT clone redder or larger than that what is described (published) or common knowledge, it is probably because you just grow it better than the originator or other growers do. Also, just because every All Green VFT you grow eventually shows some red coloration, don’t panic. Because All Green VFT do show some red at various times, regardless of what the originator publishes or tells you. Same goes for Big or Giant VFT, if the originator named it Giant then it is definitely a Giant in their mind."
Brad Ventura California
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Post by killerplants on Jun 15, 2008 2:52:56 GMT
Hi Barry, Sorry to ask such a mundane question...but what size pots are you using? I am using converted 30 oz drinking cups for the root depth, but your pots are so more space efficient than mine...
Cheers,
Joe
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Post by Alexis on Jun 15, 2008 21:17:44 GMT
I've never found any pink colouration in my DM08 (ie. Justina Davis)
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