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Post by stevestewart on May 17, 2007 20:32:52 GMT
Khelljuhg,
Peter D'Amato described and published the Drosera spatulata cultivar names in his book "THE SAVAGE GARDEN". In his book Peter states,
"The "Kansai" form from Japan is most popular, with spoon-shaped leaves and pink flowers. "Kanto" also from Japan, is very attractive with narrow, wedge-shaped leaves."
Take care,
Steven Stewart
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Post by Dave Evans on May 17, 2007 23:34:02 GMT
Well, the cultivar is basically a non-scientific name. It is not the same thing as "clone-o-var" which is what a lot people try to make it into (why? I don't know...). Anyway, any cultivar can have, only one clone, many different clones, or could include an entire species, depending on how it is defined. A cultivar that is already established can be used to make new cultivars also, through breeding and also just by watching out for random mutations, like a different flower color or differently shape fruit. If people feel the name Drosera 'Kanto' is worthless, then they do not have to use it and the name can fade from use. The plants can simply be called D. spatulata from Kanto area, or D. spatulata from Japan. However, if the name is useful because the plants are reliable different from other D. spatulata. (even though they show some variation), the cultivar name will stay "alive" by being useful to people. I would say if the name was only used to separate the D. spatulata from the much more obviously different D. tokaiensis at the original location, then it is completely worthless as a cultivar, while Drosera 'Kansai' is a good cultivar, as it really is different, different enough that even scientists feel it is a separate species. Now, say, someone discovers an all-green seedling of D. 'Kansai', they could name it also and it would be the next cultivar in the 'Kansai' group. But this is dependent on someone feeling that the name is good and worth building on. If not, we can still use the somewhat boring label, " D. tokaiensis all-green plant" Good growing, Dave Evans Hello Dave, Thanks for the answer. I do agree with you, but what I was trying to say is that I wonder why they have registered D. spatulata from Kanto area, Japan as a cultivar when it obviously includes multiple forms. The D. spatulata found in the area is not uniform but variable. Originally, the name is just a vernacular term, as I have noted above. |
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Post by Khelljuhg on May 18, 2007 0:00:54 GMT
Thanks, Steven,
I wonder whether those are published as cultivar names or just form names and whether the original definition of 'D. spatulata "Kanto"' is properly reflected. The D. spatulata found in Kanto area, Japan is not uniform, as I have mentioned. I suppose that a cultivar should basically be a single clone except for some cases?
As everyone should know today, the '"Kansai" form' is no longer considered to be a form of D. spatulata and has proved to be a different thing that originated from a hybrid between D. rotundifolia and, as it were, 'D. spatulata "Kanto"'.
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Post by Khelljuhg on May 18, 2007 0:19:08 GMT
Well, the cultivar is basically a non-scientific name. It is not the same thing as "clone-o-var" which is what a lot people try to make it into (why? I don't know...). Anyway, any cultivar can have, only one clone, many different clones, or could include an entire species, depending on how it is defined. A cultivar that is already established can be used to make new cultivars also, through breeding and also just by watching out for random mutations, like a different flower color or differently shape fruit. If people feel the name Drosera 'Kanto' is worthless, then they do not have to use it and the name can fade from use. The plants can simply be called D. spatulata from Kanto, or D. spatulata from Japan. However, if the name is useful because the plants are reliable different from other D. s. (even though they show some variation), the cultivar name will stay "alive" by being useful to people. I would say if the name was only used to separate the D. spatulata from the much more obviously different D. tokaiensis at the original location, then it is completely worthless as a cultivar, while Drosera 'Kansai' is a good cultivar, as it really is different, different enough that even scientists feel it is a separate species. Now, say, someone discovers an all-green seedling of D. 'Kansai', they could name it also and it would be the next cultivar in the 'Kansai' group. But this is dependent on someone feeling that the name is good and worth building on. If not, we can still use the somewhat boring label, " D. tokaiensis all-green plant" Good growing, Dave Evans Thanks Dave. Now it makes sense to me.  Actually, some people noticed that the 'D. spatulata' found in Kansai area is different from those in Kanto area, and then these names were given to them (after which the "Kansai" proved to be something different from D. spatulata). |
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Post by Dave Evans on May 18, 2007 21:18:35 GMT
Well, in that case the name 'Kanto' is not valid in my opinion and I will not use it. If I get some seed of the plant, I will know to label it D. spatulata xxx, Japan. Peter D'amato's naming it as a cultivar was more or less okay, it is just that he was under the impression that it was more "special" then it actually has turned out to be. Or you could say, all Japanese D. spatulata fall under the name 'Kanto', if they are reliable different from other D. spatulata. "[Drosera ' Kanto ' {D'Amato}], also from Japan, is very attractive with narrow, wedge-shaped leaves." This sounds just like any other D. spatulata, so it might be a good idea to not use this cultivar name. Can you tell me the real name for the original site of D. tokaiensis? Is it Mytoyo City? Is the plant still only known from one location? Thank-you for helping us understand more about these cultivars. Hello Dave, Thanks for the answer. I do agree with you, but what I was trying to say is that I wonder why they have registered D. spatulata from Kanto area, Japan as a cultivar when it obviously includes multiple forms. The D. spatulata found in the area is not uniform but variable. Originally, the name is just a vernacular term, as I have noted above. |
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Post by Khelljuhg on May 19, 2007 14:19:56 GMT
Well, yes, here they use the name 'D. spatulata "Kanto"' roughly or casually. They can even say, whether or not it is from Kanto area, 'This is a Kanto-type D. spatulata from a such and such location' when they refer to a D. spatulata form with wedge-shaped leaves (probably in contrast to former D. sptulata "Kansai", which has spoon-shaped leaves). It seems that D. tokaiensis is mainly found in Chubu District, Kinki District (not 'kinky', of course), East of Chugoku District, and Northeast of Shikoku District (a thorough distribution research has not yet been done so far). The specimens in some of my photos are a form from a small habitat in Mitoyo City, Kagawa pref., Shikoku District. I have just made up a potential D. tokaiensis distribution map, which is rather rough and poor. Don't blame me of the inaccuracy of the map.  www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/khelljuhg/tokaiensis_distribution.gif |
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homer
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Post by homer on May 20, 2007 3:40:12 GMT
For what its worth, I successfully crossed (lanata x broomensis) with ordensis recently. So, (lanata x broomensis) would there be a fertile hybrid? Anyone want to see the seedling? Homer |
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thwyman
Full Member
N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L
Posts: 133
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Post by thwyman on May 21, 2007 11:55:05 GMT
Anyone want to see the seedling? Homer I would love to see them |
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Post by stevestewart on May 21, 2007 12:49:19 GMT
Homer,
Yes I believe the hybrid you made should be fertile and able to either cross with it's siblings or with any of the petiolaris complex's hybrids and species.
I would like to see the seedlings also.
Take care,
Steven Stewart
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homer
Full Member
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Post by homer on May 22, 2007 3:14:54 GMT
Ok, here's the (lanata x broomensis) x ordensis. The plant is about 1" in diameter.  Homer |
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Post by Khelljuhg on May 23, 2007 3:33:39 GMT
Very nice plant, homer. I like the wooly part.
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Post by stevestewart on May 23, 2007 11:26:03 GMT
Homer,
Did all of the hybrids you got look exactly the same? I can't imagine that you only got the one plant from a batch of Drosera seed. It is a very good looking hybrid! Is your picture of the best one? Are all of the plants from your cross fairly uniform in appearance and vigor?
Take care,
Steven Stewart
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homer
Full Member
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Post by homer on May 23, 2007 15:30:48 GMT
Very similar. Too early to tell for sure however, for me to find out anyway.
This has been a pattern from the very beginning. One or two seeds germinate from any given batch of Petiolaris Complex Drosera. There are always some exceptions, like the ordensis x paradoxa and ordensis, where I got good germination rates.
Thanks. Yes, I have 1 or two more of the seedlings that are smaller, and not photographed.
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Post by shartmeyer on Jun 1, 2007 10:06:04 GMT
Khellljugh is right, writing my posting just from memory I exchanged D. spatulata "Kansai" and D. spatulata "Kanto", which are very similar. I am sorry for my error and beg your pardon. However, the meanwhile world-wide spread hybrid with D. rotundifolia is very fertile, possible that this common hybrid has doubled chromosomes.
Concerning the fertility of Drosera hybrids it was Andreas Fleischmann who told me that the crudest mix of species and hybrids that he experienced in the field appeared in Africa with species like D. madagascariensis, D. nidiformis and other species growing together in that region.
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Post by Khelljuhg on Jun 2, 2007 7:57:45 GMT
I have already commented about that, I suppose?
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