coline
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Life's essence: patience
Posts: 484
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Post by coline on May 9, 2014 1:46:25 GMT
Hi, I have recently found this plant, at the moment I'm planting the seeds, but I wonder, is this plant of the photo a true D. venusta/coccicaulis albino form, or could it be some other species? I have seen the plant actually exists since there are some photos on the photofinder, but I don't have for sure about the one on this photo. The reason I have to be with this interrogant, is that my D. venusta are much more elongated, with a longer petiole without trichomes than the plant on the photo. Below, my D. venusta typical habit.
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Post by Not a Number on May 9, 2014 3:12:03 GMT
Here is Debbert's drawings of D. venusta published with his description of the species. I'll leave it up to you to find online a copy of the original text (in German). Debbert emphasizes one of the key features of this species is the partially upright growth of the leaves at various angles (#2). However seldom does one feature a species makes. You have to look at all the features such as stipules, stigma, adaxial surfaces of the leaves, shape and trichome/gland patterns on the flower scape and so forth.
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Post by Not a Number on May 9, 2014 19:11:58 GMT
Here are some photos a flower on D. venusta. Compare it to Debbert's drawings and your "albino" which looks like will flower in a couple weeks. There may be some differences between the flowers as there is with D. capensis. Note: if you are using Firefox you can right-click on the image and pick "view image" to see the image with a larger resolution. Navigate back to return to board.
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Post by Sean Spence on May 10, 2014 16:18:32 GMT
I'll refer to this plant as a form of D. natalensis rather than "D. venusta". I am the person responsible for the spread of the seed of this form after receiving the original plants from George Caspar here in Australia when he was passing on his collection.
The original plants emerged amongst a batch of seed from a typical "D. coccicaulis". Two of the seedlings were this "albino" form which then produced offspring true to form.
The plants pictured definitely appear to be this form.
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coline
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Life's essence: patience
Posts: 484
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Post by coline on May 11, 2014 12:34:49 GMT
Exactly, those are what my plants look like, but as I said, the albino ones are just at the seed stage and have to grow. Here a plant takes somehow a lot of time to flower, they need to be almost twice as big as the ones on picture, and they do exactly the description from the drawing.
But doens't D. natalensis make more spoonlike leaves? those seem to be similar in shape as D. aliciae
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Post by hcarlton on May 11, 2014 13:23:23 GMT
None of the plants above look like natalensis. D. natalensis is actually very common in cultivation, often the plants that are widely mislabeled as dielsiana. The above plants certainly bear more of a resemblance to venusta, while natalensis/dielsiana do look somewhat like smaller aliciae plants. Also, the natalensis complex plants have a flat rosette, while venusta and its close allies like the plants above are well know for the semi-upright growth.
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Post by marcel on May 11, 2014 14:50:02 GMT
That looks exactly like the plants I grow as D. coccicaulis albino form. Nice to know where the seeds origanated from Sean
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Post by ICPS-bob on May 11, 2014 16:57:35 GMT
According to Jan Schlauer's CP Database, D. coccicaulis and D. venusta are synonyms of D. natalensis. Further, Andreas Fleischmann has stated that everything in cultivation (>99% of all plants) labelled as " D. dielsiana" actually belongs to D. natalensis. Andreas went through the Photo Finder and estimated which photos he thought were D. dielsiana and which were questionable. cpphotofinder.com/drosera-dielsiana-7071.htmlcpphotofinder.com/drosera-dielsiana-questionable-21.htmlCould anyone do this for coccicaulis, venusta, and natalensis? Do the splitters have good reason to separate these closely related plants into different species? How can a person determine which they are actually growing?
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Post by Not a Number on May 11, 2014 21:05:46 GMT
According to Jan Schlauer's CP Database, D. coccicaulis and D. venusta are synonyms of D. natalensis. Further, Andreas Fleischmann has stated that everything in cultivation (>99% of all plants) labelled as " D. dielsiana" actually belongs to D. natalensis. Andreas went through the Photo Finder and estimated which photos he thought were D. dielsiana and which were questionable. cpphotofinder.com/drosera-dielsiana-7071.htmlcpphotofinder.com/drosera-dielsiana-questionable-21.htmlCould anyone do this for coccicaulis, venusta, and natalensis? Do the splitters have good reason to separate these closely related plants into different species? How can a person determine which they are actually growing? Apparently Robert Gibson did an analysis of D. "coccicaulis". I think it was published in the Victoria Carnivorous Plant Society Newsletter. I have not seen a copy.
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Post by hcarlton on May 12, 2014 5:40:01 GMT
I remember somewhere talks (may have been on this forum) saying that coccicaulis was never a registered name, something that just came up when plants started being sold under that erroneous name. If I remember correctly the name literally translates as "berry stem," which wouldn't fit as a proper Latin name for a plant anyway. Could be the paper NaN is referring to is where that stems from. The plants fit under D. venusta rather well, if admittedly possibly a variant form. As for venusta and natalensis, both pictures I've seen as well as the plants I grow (as I'm 95% confident my new "venusta" are in fact such plants) certainly suggest they are very separate, if related, species. D. natalensis (and its relative dielsiana) are definitely low-growing plants, flat on the soil surface, with short, inch-long leaves that are halfway between spatulate and wedge-shaped. The petioles are markedly pubescent, but still much less so than the rather hairy venusta, which has larger, semi-upright leaves with a more markedly spatulate shape.
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Post by tanukimo on May 12, 2014 5:55:15 GMT
I hope this doesn't turn into something like the debate over whether Drosera binata and related species are all one species or not or whether "Drosera tracyii" is just a subspecies of Drosera filiformis.
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Post by Sean Spence on May 12, 2014 12:41:04 GMT
As Bob said!
The appearance of "D. venusta" and "D. coccicaulis" are quite different to the flat rosetted forms of D. natalensis but the fact is that "D. venusta" or "D. coccicaulis" are not what I believe to be accepted names. Until this is sorted out by someone much smarter and more dedicated than me, I'll continue to refer to them by the accepted name.
Oh, and Marcel, the plants were originally received by me as D. coccicaulis albino form (these plants are all called coccicaulis down here) and this is how they were originally distributed.
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Post by Not a Number on May 13, 2014 1:29:48 GMT
As Bob said! The appearance of "D. venusta" and "D. coccicaulis" are quite different to the flat rosetted forms of D. natalensis but the fact is that "D. venusta" or "D. coccicaulis" are not what I believe to be accepted names. Until this is sorted out by someone much smarter and more dedicated than me, I'll continue to refer to them by the accepted name. Oh, and Marcel, the plants were originally received by me as D. coccicaulis albino form (these plants are all called coccicaulis down here) and this is how they were originally distributed. The Kew / Missouri Botanical Garden Plant List records Drosera venusta as an accepted name: www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-64629
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Post by Not a Number on May 13, 2014 1:44:10 GMT
"cocci" could also refer to the color scarlet - coccos (κοκκοϛ) being the berry of the scarlet oak, used as a red dye.
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coline
Full Member
Life's essence: patience
Posts: 484
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Post by coline on May 15, 2014 1:36:31 GMT
I see the biggest difference among them in the seed. D. venusta seeds from the normal plants in my photos above are elongated with a kind of papery ending on each side, as the descriptive drawings Not a Number provided above. And the plants I have of D. natalensis have seeds kind of alike to D. capensis seeds, just a little thicker, but not elongated. This plant flowers almost white for me. D. venusta flowers pink here.
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