sb247
Full Member
Posts: 2
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Post by sb247 on Apr 26, 2014 0:18:10 GMT
Many people don't realize that in the entire world, Venus Flytraps grow wild only in a small area in North and South Carolina. Unfortunately, their populations are shrinking rapidly and they may be on the way to extinction. One contributing factor is that people are stealing thousands of plants out of protected lands and selling them in a "black market" scenario. I'm working with The Nature Conservancy to research the economics behind this market. I'm hoping to tap into the collective knowledge on this forum to gain some additional insights. Questions I'm trying to answer include: -Is there a perceived difference between wild Flytraps and cultivated Flytraps? Are people willing to pay a premium for wild Flytraps? -Are the poachers selling the stolen plants themselves at roadsides, flea markets, or on the Internet? -Or are they selling them to retailers such as nurseries, gift shops, convenience stores, etc. -Are the poached plants staying within the US, or are they going to another country? -Are any of the poached plants being used for alternative medicine, either by a big company or a small local herbalist? Please chime in if you have any thoughts or ideas. Thanks for your help! Elaine
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Post by marcel on Apr 26, 2014 13:28:20 GMT
There is a willingness of part of the growers to pay extra for unusual specimens (I have seen some almost black and also very large specimens in the wild that are not in cultivation)and like any other plant there is the willingness to pay more for a "named location" plant. However, VFT's are lucky in this department as variation is limited, a named location can be very fast identified as poached if you know the locations and also because the real money seems to be payed for the freaks that appear in TC and not for named locations. Actually there are very little VFT's in trade with location data. Poached plants are sold by the poachers and their direct contacts (think 6 roughly potted plants near the cashregister of the local gasstation), but there are some strong claims that one or two larger companies are involved going around. Without actual bulletproof evidence I will of course not give any names but the claims are easy to find when you visit a couple of fora and Face book pages or google it. So far as I can tell no poached plant has made it to Europe since the early 80's when conservation rules started to come in place. I wouldn't know about say Canada. No information on alternative medicine I'm affraid but for a large company it would be highly inefficient to use poached plants as TC plants are available by the thousands for a retail price of a little over 1 Euro, less if you actually buy them by the thousand .
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Post by Not a Number on Apr 26, 2014 15:16:31 GMT
You should contact the people at the North American Sarracenia Conservancy. The are developing a VFT conservation program and have information on poaching. www.nasarracenia.org/The advocates of the Dionaea extracts claim extracts of plants propagated through tissue culture don't have the same effectiveness as "naturally" propagated plants.
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Post by sykosarah on Apr 27, 2014 0:19:10 GMT
Lots of the poachers are random morons who go out into the bogs, see them, think they are awesome, and take one or two as a curiosity. The only thing I can think of in which wild plants might be consistently more desireable than cultivated ones would be for breeding purposes since the wild populations don't suffer from the inbreeding issues often seen in cultivated populations. But most people wouldn't think of that, my guess is that people who happen to be in the area in small numbers would rather pick one out of the ground than pay for one. Considering that there are many Venus flytraps even of the typical variety in cultivation, I doubt that the species will go extinct if the wild population does, although it would be a shame if they did go extinct in the wild.
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Post by marcel on Apr 27, 2014 9:04:06 GMT
Sarah, I disagree with that on two points i'm afraid.
First the statement that lots of poachers are random morons who take one plant. I have seen a roadside that had at least a 100 flytraps removed and there was even a nurserytype 6 hole plastic pallet left behind indicating that this was at least a semi professional operation and I've heard of many more like that. I also have seen places where just one plant was taken, but these seem to be actually targeted poachings by a specialist who wants a specific clone for its color or other features.
Second, while ex situ conservation can be helpfull I would like to remind people that most VFT's (even the horrible mutilated forms some people collect)in cultivation originate from a very small number of wild plants. When taking from the wild was still legal more variation came, but most were sold to people who didn't know how to keep them alive as this was pre-internet and with only one or two books (Slack and Temple) available to the public that even bothered to learn more. If the wild populations are gone it is my opinion that there is not enough genetic variation left for reintroduction,let alone the lack of location data that would make scientific sound reintroduction and genetic sound crossing of the cultivated plants to keep the population healthy impossible so in a way the plants would be extinct.
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Post by paulbarden on Apr 27, 2014 13:05:05 GMT
As Marcel has stated, the real problem is commercial opportunists who target populations and plunder sites of hundreds of plants. However, I will agree that these are indeed morons - but random they are not.
Private collections will mean nothing from the conservation perspective, since most of us all grow them same twenty clones! Absolutely ZERO genetic diversity in that, especially since half of those are mutated freaks generated from tissue culture; those have absolutely no value as genetic contributors towards preservation of the species. The loss of a diverse population in the wild means the irrevocable loss of unique genetic information, and private collections cannot replace that.
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Post by califcarn2 on Apr 27, 2014 15:49:54 GMT
I'm Peter D'Amato and I am the co-owner of California Carnivores, the largest CP nursery in the States, and the author of The Savage Garden. I am always appalled to hear of poaching of VFTs and other CP from the wild, as it's totally unnecessary. We've never been approached by poachers wanting to sell VFTs from wild, although many years ago some idiot wanted to sell us plants from a bog near the great lakes, which made me furious, but he seemed rather ignorant and stupid. I can't comprehend why any nursery would buy poached VFTs, since so many are available at low cost from professional producers. What needs to be found out is who is buying these plants. I really can't believe any respectable CP nursery would. It may be some nursery or seller who doesn't specialize in CP but sell them as a curiosity. Or some road side seller, but these days I also find that hard to believe.
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Post by marcel on Apr 29, 2014 15:17:33 GMT
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sb247
Full Member
Posts: 2
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Post by sb247 on Apr 29, 2014 20:28:26 GMT
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Keep 'em coming!
p.s.- I'm the intern Eric mentions at the end of the news report!
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