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Post by hcarlton on Jul 19, 2015 2:48:40 GMT
Clearly I can't change your opinion, but N. rafflesiana intermediates are as mentioned before highly distinct, and this is not one of those. N. rafflesiana is a variable species, and as you yourself have so often pointed out is often heavily intergraded with N. hemsleyana (which really should be considered a raff subspecies, with how close in nearly every manner it is), so many plants will have upper pitchers with some hip present. And, the whole thing is infundibular, perhaps the camera angle doesn't help. Less so in the upper section, but not enough to make a difference there. Also, seen that thread, commented on it actually, doesn't change the fact that every plant is different.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 21, 2015 3:57:52 GMT
Okay, just repeat that last line to yourself and understand how it applies to the very plant we're talking about. It is not a true Nepenthes upper, not quite yet.
Subspecies do not generally overlap, something different might be going on, like people's land use patterns might have placed these two species closer together. Also, these species have been cultivated for about 200 years, they have likely been hybridized in cultivation before.
Very specifically, within Nepenthes every plant which has been given the label of being a "giant" tends to also have unusual features which indicate likely hybridization. Giant gracilis is a hybrid with N. tobaica. Giant rafflesiana are probably F1 hybrids of N. hemsleyana and N. rafflesiana. And it is these hybrids which have blurred our mental image of both species. I used to keep thinking they were the same thing until I realized I've been comparing N. rafflesiana against (N. hemleysiana x N. rafflesiana) and very rarely do we even seen pure examples of N. hemsleyana--and then make sure to compare it against true N. rafflesiana. This is actually rather difficult to do as there are so many bad examples.
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Post by hcarlton on Jul 22, 2015 0:58:17 GMT
I'm calling it an upper because there is nothing I can find on it that suggests otherwise. And if I repeat my last line, doesn't change that standing. And no, subspecies generally don't overlap, but there are exceptions, a fair number in every class of organism. And funny, last time I checked there are no N. tobaica in Borneo, yet there are several "Giant" gracilis forms there, including those I am growing out from seed. And they carry no clear traits of other species.
Oh, and most plants out there that hybridize so readily in this manner are fraught with blurred background; take the Sarracenia genus for an example. Even if there are traits of another plant in it, we generally still find places where we'll make cutoff lines and simply call it one or the other; this is the case with this plant we've been discussing.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 22, 2015 2:01:54 GMT
I don't see anything "giant" about those gracilis... And, you can still find N. gracilis x N. reinwardtiana in Borneo, but it is easier to tell apart from N. gracilis x N. tobaica.
The plant in your photograph doesn't have a name, yet. It is a nature hybrid, they don't get tossed into one or the other parent species, unless you want to maintain a taxonomic confusion/mess. When you have a lot of hybrids, sometimes it gets referred to as a swarm. The swarm isn't just F1 hybrids, but all sorts of combinations/backcrosses. This has been recorded in Nepenthes before: N. ramispina and N. sanguinea have done the same thing. I'm not sure if this is naturally occurring or if humans took too much habitat leaving the species unable to maintain themselves without becoming a swarm. The F1 hybrids tend to be the largest individuals and hence the most interesting to humans.
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Post by hcarlton on Jul 23, 2015 1:31:43 GMT
The gracilis are also still in "seedling" stage at the moment, it'll be a while before they put on proper size. And the raff has been a documented plant for a long time, whether or not anyone agrees with what it should be called is somewhat moot. Until BE states its giant raffs are a new form or a hybrid, it will stay labeled as is.
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 28, 2015 0:45:52 GMT
Because BE does Nepenthes taxonomy??? Please note, Robert Cantley originally collected N. robcantleyi thinking it was just a form of N. truncata. I would not look to BE for Nepenthes Taxonomical Information. They sell plants, taxonomists study them. Sometimes they send out different plants because they can't tell them apart, like N. hirsuta and N. hispida being mixed together in the same bags!
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coline
Full Member
Life's essence: patience
Posts: 484
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Post by coline on Jul 28, 2015 14:08:59 GMT
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Post by sflynn on Aug 1, 2015 19:48:57 GMT
Hey hcarlton, do you happen to have any pics of your SG N. ampullaria when they were only about 6-12 months old? It's really hard to find pictures of N. ampullaria when they are that young for some reason.
Thank you!
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Post by hcarlton on Aug 2, 2015 2:31:59 GMT
If I did, it's probably deleted by now. At that young, though, they're just about identical to a lot of species: raff, mirabilis forms, etc.
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Post by hcarlton on Aug 5, 2015 3:20:27 GMT
Still waiting for actual uppers on this guy, apparently... N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x mixta by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa "red" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Looking at pics of other people's plants, starting to wonder if my "beccariana" are in fact sumatrana N. beccariana "red" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. jamban Barumun by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. pectinata Sg by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This thing is getting better and better. Latest pitcher I thin is 5" high N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr And this thing keeps chugging along N. ampullaria "Green, Singkawang" Sg by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr If the beccariana turn out to be sumatrana, makes me wonder if this is truly a different form, or another species altogether N. sumatrana "Giant, Nias" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Red, Bukit Barisan" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "dark brown parent, Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "dark brown parent, Sajingan" Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Suspect this guy may yet turn out to be a hookeriana N. rafflesiana "dark brown parent, Sajingan" Clone H by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Odd pitcher this one: the peristome is nearly devoid of actual ribs, but the teeth are huge N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr And just repotted this guy. The pitchers should start getting larger, and hopefully that peristome continues expanding like this N. bellii x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. bellii x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burkei BE-3254 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burkei BE-3254 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. maxima "wavy leaf?" Central Sulawesi SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. maxima "wavy leaf?" Central Sulawesi SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Incredible the amount of contrast between siblings N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone E by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Hit the jackpot on this plant too. The peristome darkens to a rich purple/maroon, and the pitcher body darkens a whole lot as well N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa "pale/cherry lips" x "red" clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa "pale/cherry lips" x "red" clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant red, Singkawang" SG Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant red, Singkawang" SG Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. platychila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. platychila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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Post by hcarlton on Sept 4, 2015 14:44:14 GMT
N. maxima "wavy leaf?" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr New pitcher N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Old pitcher N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' x (bokorensis? x aristolochioides) Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' x (bokorensis? x aristolochioides) Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr So the pitcher on this finally darkened completely; the peristome is black N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red," Singkawang by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. platychila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. platychila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x splendiana x tiveyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Seems my burkei x hamata is taking a lot of the hamata traits N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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Post by hcarlton on Sept 24, 2015 22:45:07 GMT
Definitely struck gold on this one. The pitcher's peristome has since aged to black cherry N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Discovered this plant is producing a basal, which might explain some of the funky leaves... new pitcher: N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr And the same pitcher, week and a half later N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. truncata lowland SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr The main vine isn't even a foot long, and this guy has at least 6 basals... N. ampullaria "Green" Sintang, W. Kalimantan by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. mirabilis "Sajingan, W. Kalimantan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. mirabilis "Sajingan, W. Kalimantan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. platychila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x splendiana x tiveyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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Post by hcarlton on Oct 12, 2015 23:59:54 GMT
First ever upper on N. khasiana N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr The largest seedling of this cross is showing some nice ribbing N. (spathulata x campanulata) x ventricosa "red" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Fully mature pitcher. Check out how dark that color gets....! N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr These pitchers also seem to last a very long time N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Someone's outgrowing their pot again... N. x splendiana x tiveyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr These guys are not, yet, but they are getting large N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This is not an old pitcher but, in fact, the actual color. Camera doesn't capture the nearly black mottling well.. N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr And even the leaves are rich purple N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone E by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone F by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr The atten is growing pretty steadily N. attenboroughii by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr As is rajah x jacq N. rajah x jacquelineae by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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Post by hcarlton on Dec 5, 2015 3:57:08 GMT
A very long, likely multi-part update to follow... Documented the changing color of N. burb x rc; it has quite the wardrobe switch N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr The peristome is actually darker than the pictures depict N. burbidgeae x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. pectinata SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. burkei x hamata BE-3594 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' Exotica by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' Exotica by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x mixta by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x mixta by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This plant appears to be turning into a "var. alata" N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr A winged tendril is forming.. N. rafflesiana "green/spotted parent, Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. truncata is throwing out some decent pitchers finally, but still not reaching the next stage of maturity... N. truncata Lowland SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. truncata Lowland SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Uppers are distinctly different, and still getting more elongate as time goes by N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Viking #19 x (maxima x trusmadiensis) by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This guy is also getting really impressive. Decent basal, and the main plant is throwing out some fat pitchers.. N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Most recent pitcher is even tubbier than this.. N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. merrilliana x campanulata by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ampullaria "Green" Sintang by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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Post by hcarlton on Dec 7, 2015 2:36:20 GMT
N. graciliflora "Pink" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "red" Bukit Barisan by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "red" Bukit Barisan by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ampullaria 'Harlequin' by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ampullaria 'Harlequin' by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ampullaria 'Harlequin' by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This guy has gotten very large N. sumatrana "Giant, Nias" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. sumatrana "Giant, Nias" by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. mirabilis "Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. mirabilis "Sajingan" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. mirabilis "Sajingan" Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rafflesiana "dark brown parent, Sajingan" Clone H by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. Sunset Songs Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Definitely my favorite of the group... N. Sunset Songs Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. sunset Songs Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr khasiana has gone into producing uppers recently, and they are truly flamboyantly colored. N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. khasiana by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x hookeriana Sajingan by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x hookeriana Sajingan by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N burkei BE-3254 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N burkei BE-3254 by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Recently repotted the 6 main vent x tiveyi, hopefully I'll see some size jumps soon and some truly mature pitchers... N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa x tiveyi Clone E by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. bellii x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. bellii x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. bellii x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr This guy was moved up next to the big sumatrana, still pitchering even after the move and repot; this pitcher was there before the move however N. longifolia "dark" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. (spathulata x campanulata) x ventricosa "red" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Just repotted these guys too, the plant sporting the big pitcher here has begun to blush red N. maxima "miniature, Palu Sulawesi" SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' x ("thorelii x aristolochioides) Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' x ("thorelii x aristolochioides) Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. 'Rokko' x ("thorelii x aristolochioides) Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr First mature pitcher on any of the SG ventricosas N. ventricosa "pale/cherry lips" x "red" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa "pale/cherry lips" x "red" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. ventricosa "pale/cherry lips" x "red" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Repotted these guys as well N. izumiae Pasaman SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. izumiae Pasaman SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Atten also repotted N. attenboroughii SG by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Found this oddity not long ago: a recent flower stalk on this plant produced two flowers that have both male and female structures. The female buds have since begun splitting open in a semblance of apomixis N. (inermis x singalana) x mira by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr The gracilis "giant" are still doing very well, and diversifying N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone A by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone B by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Still by far the fav plant N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone C by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Rather fond of the speckled ones too though N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone D by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. gracilis "Giant Red, Singkawang" Clone E by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Most recent pitcher on this plant has some incredible patterning N. x splendiana x tiveyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. x splendiana x tiveyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr And this guy just keeps getting bigger N. playtchila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. playtchila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. playtchila x robcantleyi by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr Also steadily growing, and the P. lusitanica sharing the pot are doing great too N. rajah x jacquelineae by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. rajah x jacquelineae by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr N. vogelii by Hawken Carlton, on Flickr
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