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Post by rsivertsen on Mar 29, 2007 20:53:56 GMT
I've managed to get Aldrovanda naturalized in a small isolated private pond near where I live, and after several years of observing them, I am convinced now that Aldrovanda is an integral constituent in a complex symbiotic community, and cannot exist for long, isolated in an artificial setting such as a container. It's not the chemistry so much as it is the biology of the water, in that they require the close presence of large monocot plants, such as Phragmites, Typha, Carex and Juncus hummocks, whose roots give off CO2 by respiration, and absorb excess nitrogenous matter, and the population density of the zooplankton community, on which it feeds, and also release CO2. As with Utricularia, they are rootless plants and the only way they have of acquiring essential nutrients is by their carnivory; they truly need to feed, and will go into decline if they don't have enough available prey. Small snails and copepods have been observed grazing on filamentous algae on the strands of Aldrovanda. Curiously, the Utricularia seem to get overwhelmed with algae, (and also occupy the deeper areas) but the Aldrovanda remains conspicuously free of any algae in the pond. I've scooped up strands of Aldrovanda and thrown them into large floating clouds of filamentous algae, and notice that the algae goes into decline and disappears after a few days! The pond does have a presence of clay, tests neutral for acidity (pH=7.0) and also moderately hard water. The Aldrovanda does best in the very shallow periphery of the pond, growing commingled with the grasses, arrowheads, and other monocots that are anchored in the detritus, growing up past the surface, usually in depths of less than a foot of water, even in just a slurry of detritus, where the Aldrovanda will form very compact nodes, and even grow vertically, resembling small Dionea plants. There's too much to post in this brief forum, but if anyone is interested in attempting to naturalize Aldrovanda, you may email me: rsivertsen@optonline.net I haven't figured out yet how to post images onto a server here, but will email some of them if anyone is interested. Be prepared for some startling surprises! They are truly amazing plants!
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Mar 29, 2007 21:07:53 GMT
Hmmm.... Just to make this clear to everyone, having Aldrovanda run rampant in a PRIVATELY OWNED pond is your (the owner of the pond, no one specific) business as long as it doesn't violate any laws. However it is not ethical nor wise to naturalize it in natural lakes and ponds and bodies of water. I know you would never consider this, rsivertsen, but I just wanted to clarify so that no one gets the wrong idea about what is going on. No one is releasing any alien species into the environment. With that said, fascinating and welcome! I myself, I'm not too good with Aldrovanda. I even had a co2 cylinder before it blew up in my face (literally lmao). Regulator blew a hole and it decompressed in my face. Scary stuff lmao. PS: once your image is uploaded, just hit reply, click the picture icon in the Tags options right above this text box, and put the URL between the 2 tags. If you use photobucket or imageshack etc. you can just copy and paste the code they provide
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Post by rsivertsen on Mar 29, 2007 22:24:33 GMT
I have the same concerns about having Aldrovanda becoming another exotic gone feral, especially in pristine and protected public forests, which is why I took so much time and effort in carefully selecting the sites that I did; they were abandoned sand quarries, one a small beaver dam, and so on, but the only one that Aldrovanda succeeded, and thrived was the last place I expected to see it alive again, a small rain-water run-off pond in the back of a shopping mall, where ducks and Canadian geese, and snapping turtles feed on the dormant turions. They've decimated the population several times, and I had written them off almost every year, as the site also dries up completely for several weeks during the late summer; but somehow, they manage to come back, and even produce flowers in July, and set seed.
All other attempts in sites that I thought were far better suited, have failed. Having observed these plants closely over the years, I seriously doubt that they would pose a threat to the NJ Pine Barrens, as the waterways are too cold, too dark, too acidic, and too deep. Even if some Aldrovanda were to find its way via some migratory birds into the Pine Barrens, I suspect that if any survived, it would find small rare micro niches where the habitat is suitable, and not as invasive as some may fear. Even in this small pond behind the shopping mall, the plants go into decline if they drift into deeper water, and I actually proved this by forcing them into several netted cages at various depths, and those that were forced out into depths in excess of 18 inches of water went into decline, and eventually died off by the end of the season.
Rich
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Post by ICPS-bob on Mar 29, 2007 23:36:19 GMT
I haven't figured out yet how to post images onto a server here, but will email some of them if anyone is interested. This Forum does not host photo uploads. You must have your photos on an external webserver somewhere. There are numerous free photo-hosting sites, such as photobucket and imageshack. Then, it is an easy matter to add an image link here (the 4th from left bottom button under Add Tags above on a new topic or reply).
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Post by pinglover on Mar 30, 2007 2:30:04 GMT
Quick comment, rsivertsen resides in New Jersey. Aldrovanda is indigenous to several continents but North America isn't one of them therefore it would in fact be an alien species that has been introduced to the environment. www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq5055.htmlI'm not all that comfortable with attempting to introduce it anywhere but in its natural range. I share your concerns particularly insomuch as abandoned sand quarries are often frequented by water foul. The presence of water foul would concern me. www.northeastans.org/whatareans.htm
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matti
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Post by matti on Mar 30, 2007 10:22:24 GMT
rsivertsen, You are awear that Aldrovanda is spread from lagoon to lagoon via birds?, what you have done is a complete . I use Carex sp. and Eleocharis sp. as litter in my Aldrovanda boxes, I also use Carex sp. as a live plant along with water Lillie's and salvinia molesta, all this is nothing new. www.bestcarnivorousplants.com/aldrovanda/ Are you serious?, Maybe it is just a coincidence. I have always had trouble one way or another with algae growing on Aldrovanda, it never fully goes away even in acidic waters. My plants are now growing in VERY alkaline water, since I moved to my new location that is the way they have been growing since I moved here, I don't really think they care about the acidity of the water but I do know that you are less likely to encounter algal blooms in acidic water, something about buggering up the algae's chemical reactions. ;D Why do you want to naturalize Aldrovanda?, what is it going to accomplish, if you want to grow it just take the time to set up a container, let the water equilibrate and put some in. naturalizing it is a total With that said, fascinating and welcome! I myself, I'm not too good with Aldrovanda. I even had a co2 cylinder before it blew up in my face (literally lmao). Regulator blew a hole and it decompressed in my face. Scary stuff lmao. Do you know why your regulator blew up? did you try and adjust the flow rate before you cracked the cylinder?, doing that can damage the little bits in the regulator and that would of been what caused it.
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Post by rsivertsen on Mar 30, 2007 11:35:27 GMT
I have tried to grow Aldrovanda in containers for over 20 years, and the longest I was able to keep it alive was just under a year. The red forms seem a little easier for some reason, the larger Japanese strains are hardy to the winters here, but are much more difficult to keep alive in containers; the red Australian forms do not produce winter dormant turions, and die, even when brought indoors. They just don't have enough to eat to sustain their growth. Growing them in a small private pond is the only way that has worked so far. It still is not easy to do, and over 95% of the sites that I've tried have failed. Only one site near where I live has suitable conditions. Many backyard water features host various water lilies and other exotic plants in small private ponds, which could also spread to other sites via migratory birds; same with backyard gardens. Are we going to shut down the import of all non-native plants? Deliberately introducing exotic plants and animals into the wild and protected forests is indeed illegal, and unethical, but growing Aldrovanda in a small private pond, in a natural setting is not.
It's still a mystery to me why Aldrovanda does not have problems with algae in this site, while several Utricularia species does. I susspect the density of the zooplankton community may feed on the algae. Even when I throw strands of Aldrovanda into a dense mat of floating algae blooms, the algae goes into decline and disappears within a few days! When I attempt to grow Aldrovanda in containers, algae quickly becomes a problem. I even tried to pour seltzer into the containers, as CO2 not only dissolves in water, but reacts with it to form carbolic acid; H2O+CO2->H2CO3, and this helped to deter the algae, and provided the Aldrovanda with CO2, but it outgases very quickly, and the water needs to be changed several times per week, Growing Aldrovanda in containers is very labor intensive, and just an exercise in futility in my experience. The plant truly needs the symbiotic constituents of a natural setting in order to thrive; it is the only carnivorous plant that can trap and feed on the larger size mosquito larvae.
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Post by pinglover on Mar 30, 2007 11:50:17 GMT
There are those who are proponents of just what you suggested- "Are we going to shut down the import of all non-native plants?"
Although I am not currently a proponent of this due to the fact that there are so many well behaved exotics that stay put, the day may come where many cross over. Exotics are naturalizing at an unprecedented rate.
I volunteer in "wild" areas. It is most unfortunate however very few people are afforded the opportunity of seeing the consequences of their irresponsible plant choices.
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Post by vicbrown on Mar 30, 2007 12:34:38 GMT
I grow the sub-tropical australian form of Aldrovanda and find it very easy to grow in a fairly small container. I've been growing this form in a small, plastic goldfish bowl (volume = 1 gallon US) on my N-facing kitchen windowsill for 5 years with good results. I don't use lights, heaters, additional CO2 or companion plants, so my method is contrary to much of what you'll read elsewhere about cultivating this plant; my plants might do even better if I did though! I prepare the water by boiling a handful of Sphagnum peat and a handful of chopped Phragmites straw (easy to get - they use it for thatching roofs in my part of Olde England!) in a pint of water and let it cool. I then strain the contents of the pan; the solid residue goes on the bottom of the bowl and is covered with a thin layer of fine silica sand. The remaining dark-coloured "tea" is allowed to settle further and filtered through a paper coffee filter and then diluted to just under a gallon US will cooled, boiled rainwater. This is carefully added to the bowl so that the sand on the bottom isn't disturbed - this I find is the hardest part of my method of growing! After a month I introduced the Aldrovanda and its been doing well since. I occasionally add a few pet store bought Daphnia to feed the plants - they can persist in the bowl for months, so I don't do this often. Algae can be a slight problem, the addition of a small European pond snail sorts most of it! I do change the water every year and have a second identical bowl - bought for less than $1 at a yard sale, which I set up a month or so before giving the plants a quick rinse in rainwater and transferring to their new home. They do slow down in winter, with reduced temperatures and light, but they don't form turions and soon take off again in the spring. Here's the bowl as of 15 minutes ago; In this link to an old post on CPUK, you can see the same thing in 2004. www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3100&highlight=aldrovanda+vicVic
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Mar 30, 2007 13:56:55 GMT
Matti, funny story actually I got my brand new regulator and shut off the valve. I put it on the tank and opened it up, nothing! So then I tightened it down harder and that's when it pressed the pin and it blew a hole through the connector. Just a tiny pin-sized hole but it was enough to scare the *****out of me
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matti
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Post by matti on Mar 30, 2007 14:03:44 GMT
Matti, funny story actually I got my brand new regulator and shut off the valve. I put it on the tank and opened it up, nothing! So then I tightened it down harder and that's when it pressed the pin and it blew a hole through the connector. Just a tiny pin-sized hole but it was enough to scare the ***** out of me He he, you have to open the valve on the bottle then the one on the regulator... I have alot of welding experiance. watch that co2, it is very cold when it comes out. do you know what kind of metal the connector/threads are made out of?.
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Mar 30, 2007 14:10:13 GMT
It was a paintball cylinder and I think they are different in America, too. There's nothing to do on the cylinder except put a regulator on it.
Brass I think. Anyways I got rid of my solenoid and cylinder and everything else lol.
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matti
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Post by matti on Mar 30, 2007 14:15:34 GMT
It was a paintball cylinder and I think they are different in America, too. There's nothing to do on the cylinder except put a regulator on it. Brass I think. Anyways I got rid of my solenoid and cylinder and everything else lol. Paintball, I see. Different type of cylinder. So long as your peatmoss is fresh it will supply the aldrovanda with the required co2, thats all the treatment mine get.
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Mar 30, 2007 14:20:08 GMT
Yeah.. I tend to overdo things sometimes only to have them blow up in my face (no pun intended).
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Post by BarryRice on Mar 30, 2007 20:42:51 GMT
Just for the record, since some of you may be surprised I haven't posted anything in this thread already since it mentions efforts to naturalize Aldrovanda in the USA....
I've already expressed in a number of emails to rsivertsen over the years my grave concerns about these potentially irreversible introductions, but it hasn't gotten me anywhere. I've made my comments clear, so don't see much point in arguing the situation further.
I love Aldrovanda, and hope to see it in the wild someday, but I'm not going to plant in my area to do so.
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