Poaching?

[w03]

Maybe it's just me, but this ebay offer seems a lot like poaching, based on location, pricing, and provided photos. Again, it may be an overreaction on my part, but that's just my opinion.

Here's the link: cgi.ebay.com/Pitcher-Plants-10-live-carnivorous-plants_W0QQitemZ230386037582QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a413f34e

[ICPS-bob]

The item is stated to be in Ocean Springs, MS. The statement "So I won't promise to send replacements or give refunds or any of that, it's just not practical, but I can say that I'll send you multiple freshly dug plants, ..." does look a little suspicious.

[w03]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[rsivertsen]

I was in the US Air Force between 1969 and 1973 and was stationed in Biloxi Mississippi for about a year, in which time I got to know a few people in that area as it was loaded with S. alata and S. psitt's along with many other CPs in that region.

One day, I was contacted by one of these individuals, who knew my interest, and wanted to build a small house on a lot which happened to contain the best stands of S. alata and its various hybrids I ever saw, and was asked to take what ever I thought was interesting before the digging and construction began which would kill all of these pants. I took what I could, and never did get back to see what was left. Again, here in Planet Reality, life goes on. It's not always pretty, and not always ethical, or what we think is legal; but it is what it is, like it or not. Deal with it. These days, if we get a chance to salvage a few plants on eBay, so what? Is it poaching on private property about to get more developed? Who cares? Just a reality check and just my 2 cents. - Rich

[Not a Number]

...and it is entirely possible that the seller has boggy areas on his property. Take John Hummer for example.

[ICPS-bob]

Poaching (or theft) is a complicated topic because of law, ownership, morality, and local custom -- including respect for others. I am certainly not happy with someone deciding to cut flowers from plants in my yard simply because they want them.

In 2001, Barry Rice wrote an excellent article on the subject in CPN, which I recommend all to read and consider. It is located at
www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/articles/CPNv30n2p43_50.pdf

I extracted a few points from Barry's article to consider:

The greatest danger to these plants is us - the very enthusiasts who should be the most interested in their well-being. Past violations by members of the carnivorous plant enthusiast community have earned us distrust, and have alienated those stewards and policy makers who should be our allies.

Because of widespread and persistent poaching problems, the managers attending this meeting were certainly nervous about cooperating with carnivorous plant enthusiasts. As a group, we enthusiasts have justly earned ourselves a name that will be difficult to rehabilitate. The distrust towards carnivorous plant growers (and the ICPS) is so bad that a number of times during the meeting I felt that being associated with the ICPS could be a liability to my career in conservation science!

In order for the ICPS to continue to help in Sarracenia conservation, trust must be established with the various management organizations already working at Sarracenia sites. There have been so many poaching abuses by collectors that anyone interested in visiting Sarracenia sites - hobbyists, scientists, or earnest ICPS members - are immediately distrusted. While the ICPS may want to help, it must demonstrate that its help can be trusted!

Every square cm of the USA is owned by some person or is overseen by some governmental agency. Visitation without first contacting landowners may result in trespassing and personal theft charges. (And beware, many landowners have firearms, and encounters can become very frightening, very quickly.) Anyone caught collecting rare Sarracenia on public lands can be subject to a combination of state and federal charges, including the violation of the federal Endangered Species Act of 1973. (This applies to removal of plants, seedlings, and seed.)

[w03]

Thanks for everyone's input!

[marcel]

I think Barry's article sums the problems with wild cp's and hobbyists up nicely so everyone do us true CP-lovers a favor:
Please don't collect plants yourself unless you are 100% sure it is legal.
As for e-bay and others:
Please avoid buying plants if you are not sure were they came from, you don't want to risk encouraging other people in their bad habits. t

(and so far I have never seen anything offered that I could not get by other means from at trusted source at the same price or cheaper anyway)

[Brian Barnes]

Jan 2, 2010 2:21:29 GMT rsivertsen said:

I was in the US Air Force between 1969 and 1973 and was stationed in Biloxi Mississippi for about a year, in which time I got to know a few people in that area as it was loaded with S. alata and S. psitt's along with many other CPs in that region.

One day, I was contacted by one of these individuals, who knew my interest, and wanted to build a small house on a lot which happened to contain the best stands of S. alata and its various hybrids I ever saw, and was asked to take what ever I thought was interesting before the digging and construction began which would kill all of these pants. I took what I could, and never did get back to see what was left. Again, here in Planet Reality, life goes on. It's not always pretty, and not always ethical, or what we think is legal; but it is what it is, like it or not. Deal with it. These days, if we get a chance to salvage a few plants on eBay, so what? Is it poaching on private property about to get more developed? Who cares? Just a reality check and just my 2 cents. - Rich

Rich,

I must say that what you are stating, whether it's your "2 cents" or not, is strongly against ICPS policy and rules. Whether someone thinks certain rules are stupid, makes no sense, unethical, etc...does not matter. Rules and laws are put into place for a reason. Period.

And they are meant to be followed. Period. If that was NOT the case, then all of our jails and prisons would be empty, instead of overflowing. One of the biggest problems within society is people that carry a "So what, who cares" attitude.

I must say that that's the type attitude I'd expect from a rebellious pre-teen!

Below are links to ICPS Policy and our policies regarding seed and plant collection. PLEASE read them;

www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/conservation.html
www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/plantcollect.html
www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/seedcollect.html

The ICPS and myself have worked hard to raise money and public awareness for our rapidly disappearing, dwindling CP environments in an ethical, legal and quite practical way. Statements such as yours don't just slap the ICPS and all it stands for in the face. It slaps me in the face as well. Please refrain from posting such disheartening views here on our Forum.

Consider this your first....and last warning.

Thank you,

Brian Barnes,
ICPS Director of Conservation.