|
Post by ltecato on May 27, 2009 0:44:12 GMT
Hi I'm new so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I'm just wondering if it's still acceptable for a hobbyist like me to take any carnivorous plant out of its natural environment ... if the plant is not threatened or endangered or legally protected. Are there any species that can be dug up and taken home without being guilty of poaching? Something tells me the answer is "NO!"
|
|
|
Post by Brian Barnes on May 27, 2009 1:21:43 GMT
Uhhhh.....no. Brian.
|
|
|
Post by danieldickins on May 27, 2009 14:44:02 GMT
To just say "no" to ALL field collecting is a bit narrow minded. Where would our hobby be if that view was prevelent right from the beginning?
Given this philosophy, there should, for example, never be any new species of nepenthes introduced into cultivation, as that would constitute ripping a plant out of its natural habitat, even if it is only one plant for the purposes of tissue culturing it.
Where a species is endangered, I would agree, but frankly, I don't see any harm in collecting a plant or two from some of the bogs that I have been into where S. purpurea, D. rotundifolia, D. intermedia, P. vulgaris and others are so plentiful that you cannot walk through the area without trampling hundreds of them while portaging between two bodies of water.
What about an area where the drosera are so thick that new seedlings be crowded out and not have enough light to grow. Does removing a few from that area make a difference? Probably not, as new seedlings will fill the gaps fairly quickly.
Those are just my thoughts, right or wrong as they may be.
|
|
|
Post by rsivertsen on May 27, 2009 14:53:46 GMT
I'm inclined to agree with that, to a certain extent, especially if it can help some kids get interested in these plants, and provide some educational benefit. I don't recommend collecting any plants from protected parks and habitats. What bothers me most is knowing that one might risk some very expensive fines, and even jail time if caught rescuing some plants from a site that is being bull-dozed into oblivion by construction and development. I suppose it's OK to destroy the entire site, thousands of plants being killed, while someone who makes an effort to save a few plants by digging them up, and putting them into a safe place is wrong. Maybe I don't get it either. - Rich
|
|
|
Post by marcel on May 27, 2009 16:03:10 GMT
There are of course cases in which wild collection is acceptable. These cases depend on the plant, the location and in some cases on being able to get the proper paperwork done. I hope this doesn't sound to arrogant because it isn't mend to be, but these rules and exceptions are quite complicated so if your not enough at home with those rules and regulations that you have to ask the question the save answer is: No you can't!
|
|
|
Post by brokken on May 28, 2009 6:42:11 GMT
My own take on it is that: If you find an exceptional individual that merits cultivation - with the proper permissions and preferably in a way where a piece of the plant is taken instead of the whole. Even if there's hundreds of thousands of them in a bog, if it's already in cultivation why not simply buy one from the pool of readily available plants out there? If everyone had the attitude of "I'll just take one. No one will notice" we would soon decimate the wild populations.
|
|
|
Post by Brian Barnes on May 28, 2009 10:05:40 GMT
Marcel and Brokken, You nailed it right on the head! Here's a link that scratches the surface regarding proper legal plant collection here in Florida. To my knowledge, it's pretty much overall... give or take a little depending on State, at least for the US. www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herbarium/collperm/Brian.
|
|
|
Post by danieldickins on May 28, 2009 12:34:05 GMT
When I see it mentioned that if everyone collected a specimen, there would be none left, I can't help but think that we're overestimating the size and popularity of our hobby just a tad. People aren't exactly flocking to bogs to find carnivorous plants.
I'll bet that there aren't too many CP species that are endangered by the odd person collecting a plant or two from the wild. Those plants are quickly replaced by natural reproduction.
Most losses due to collection occur when poachers come in and collect virtually everything from a site, or all of what they think is a desirable form. It then makes it very difficult for the affected plants to re-establish themselves in that area. But, with maybe the exception of VFT, I doubt that any poacher made any serious money from selling other genera of CP as houseplants.
And even when you look at sales of VFT, the most popular CP by far, they don't move that well in any typical retail situations that I have witnessed. Most places get a shipment once in a blue moon, and most of those plants sit there for a very long time where they ultimately languish and die before they get sold. If our hobby was that significant and was actually growing at discernable pace, they'd get snapped up quickly and the stores would carry them on a regular basis.
When you look at CP sources for genera other than VFT, they are far and few between when you think about it. If CP were that popular, there would be many more sources from which to choose.
The real culprit when it comes to why CP are largely endangered is habitat destruction. The number of plants lost to collection or even poaching pales in comparison to the numbers lost due to loss of suitable places in which these plants can grow.
I'd be much more concerned about that than I would be about seeing one individual in a ditch removing one or two carnivorous plants.
And of course, where a population has been deminated by any sort of process, I would never advocate collecting from such locations.
|
|
|
Post by brokken on May 29, 2009 2:35:39 GMT
I'll bet that there aren't too many CP species that are endangered by the odd person collecting a plant or two from the wild. Those plants are quickly replaced by natural reproduction. Most losses due to collection occur when poachers come in and collect virtually everything from a site, or all of what they think is a desirable form. It then makes it very difficult for the affected plants to re-establish themselves in that area. But, with maybe the exception of VFT, I doubt that any poacher made any serious money from selling other genera of CP as houseplants. Again, I must ask from those who would wild collect: If the species is already available out there... Why do you feel it necessary to take one from the wild? To me this is analogous to taking plants from a neighbor's yard because I'm too lazy or too cheap to go to the nursery and get one myself. I just don't feel that abundance is justification for appropriating plants from the wild. If you feel that you absolutely MUST have something from the wild, I feel that the decent thing to do is to ask for permission. I also have to disagree with you regarding the habits of poachers. Some plants have such a narrow range that even the loss of a few individuals can construe a huge genetic loss to the environment. During the times of manifest destiny no one thought that we could make a dent in the bison population. How the tables turn. In addition, when you wild collect, you run the risk of bringing pests into your collection. Such was the case of a collector who accidentally brought a blight of exyra moths to his prized collection of sarracenia. I wouldn't necessarily force my opinions on anyone, but I just don't think that cassual wild collecting is that great of an idea.
|
|
|
Post by danieldickins on May 29, 2009 12:27:59 GMT
So you're telling me that every species of CP is available for sale? So when I'm up north on a wilderness fishing trip and I happen upon a "clump" of S. purpurea that is acres in size, who would I ask for permission?
Where can I get D. linearis through a nursery? I've looked online and the only place that I can find them is through an internet site that I will not name because I've dealt with them before and had poor results. I'm not about to spend an atrocious amount for a few seeds that won't germinate.
Also, of all the species in cultivation, how many of them came from wild populations originally? If this "never collect" attitude was absolutely enforced, how many species would be available to CP hobbyists today? Maybe those newly discovered nepenthes species that everyone gets excited about, which are probably much more limited than, say, S. oreophila, should never come into cultivation, as collecting that one species could genetically screw that species.
And to compare a relatively small population of people who actually do remove specimens from the wild to the decimation of the bison population is a bit extreme, don't you think?
Again, this is just my two cents worth, and I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. FWIW, I do purchase 99% of my plants from legitimate sources (to the tune of thousands of dollars). But several years, while on the aforementioned fishing trip, I happened upon a very large population of very large S. purpurea in a remote northen Ontario bog - easily twice the size of anything I ever saw before, and I did remove two plants, which are now happily growing in my artificial bog. Their huge size has remained stable since the transplant. I doubt that I endangered them, as you can't even drive up there - it was on a fly-in fishing trip, and the bog was part of a portage - so there won't be any people lining up to remove them.
Dan
|
|
|
Post by Brian Barnes on May 29, 2009 13:08:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by frenchy87128 on May 29, 2009 18:37:17 GMT
Even if you are denied the rights to wild collect through the link that Brian has posted and you are not willing to pay an exorbitant prize or your plant is simply not for sale online that are numerous people online that will be willing to trade with you should you contact them and offer them a fair trade.
Like Brokken said: "I'll just take one. No one will notice" we would soon decimate the wild populations.
The plants for sale online have been collected from the wild FOR you so that we do not do this. They collect in the wild in order to mass produce divisions or protect them if their environment is in danger. If this plant is truly something you're really waiting for then it is worth every effort in getting it legally. There is no pride in acquiring a tainted plant.
|
|
|
Post by danieldickins on May 29, 2009 19:02:28 GMT
And as I responded, I think that we are overestimating the size and scope of our hobby, and the number of people who, as a result of being interested in CP, would even bother to walk into a bug-infested, potentially dangerous place to pull out a pitcher plant or sundew.
I just don't think that there are very many. I can probably count all of the growers within reasonable driving distance of my place on my fingers and toes and have some left over, and my location is not remote by any means. It's virtually impossible to get enough people together to have a meet-and-greet here due to the relatively low density of local CP hobbyists in comparison to something such as our local orchid society.
Even the most of locally sold VFT (the most popular CP on the market) don't sell and wind up in the garbage.
I think that the CP in my area are safe from being decimated by people plucking the native CP from their original locations.
|
|
|
Post by brokken on May 29, 2009 19:18:10 GMT
And as I responded, I think that we are overestimating the size and scope of our hobby, and the number of people who, as a result of being interested in CP, would even bother to walk into a bug-infested, potentially dangerous place to pull out a pitcher plant or sundew. I just don't think that there are very many. I can probably count all of the growers within reasonable driving distance of my place on my fingers and toes and have some left over, and my location is not remote by any means. It's virtually impossible to get enough people together to have a meet-and-greet here due to the relatively low density of local CP hobbyists in comparison to something such as our local orchid society. Even the most of locally sold VFT (the most popular CP on the market) don't sell and wind up in the garbage. I think that the CP in my area are safe from being decimated by people plucking the native CP from their original locations. It's obviously not a black-white situation. Wild collecting for the purpose of preservation is how we ended up with these marvelous plants in the first place. To accept this and then turn around and say that you can't wild collect from here on in would be two-faced. It becomes a judgement call and that's merely what I'm expressing here - my own take on wild collecting. A friend of mine offered me some wild collected S. minor that he got in Florida. I declined not only because I thought it was not the soundest method to acquire sarracenia but also because of the concern that in so doing, I might be bringing potential pests and diseases into my collection - small as that chance might be. You obviously think otherwise and sound like a reasonable person who collects conscientiously from places where the plants will recover. Maybe you've collected a new variety that people would be very interested in once you start propagating it. If so, kudos to you. I'm offering my opinion on wild collecting, that's all.
|
|
|
Post by jfowler on May 30, 2009 1:44:05 GMT
I am somewhat in agreement with danieldickens. Consider VFT's in the wild, for instance. There are areas in the Green Swamp, NC, where I've been to look for native terestrial orchids - my other passion. As I wander out in the longleaf pine savannah, I know that I'm treading on dozens if not hundreds of VFT's. You just can't walk in that area without stepping on them, hidden in the tall grass. Can it possibly be harmful if, instead of trampling on one, I "liberate" it and take it home and place it in my bog garden where it will get lots of attention?
I think the problem lies in degree of "liberation". Someone mentioned the case of poachers who will dig everything within sight, not caring at all about the plants or the area where the plants live. Recently, poachers were caught in the Green Swamp with thousands of VFTs and S. purpurea subsp. venosa. There is no denying that could make a dent in the gene pool in a specific area. Fortunately, those plants were eventually reintroduced into the area where they were taken.
Are you saying that if we allow one or two relatively common CPs to be taken, then the "slippery slope" theory will hold forth, and people will start coming in droves to "liberate" plants? I think that is making a mountain out of a molehill.
On the other hand, I revisited a site a month or so ago that had a single, natural S. Xswaniana group. I wanted to photograph the beautiful peachy-orange flowers as I had done the previous year. What I found was a hole in the ground! This really pissed me off. I had been visiting it for a few years and looked forward to seeing it again. This was a rare plant for this location, but someone wanted it more than I did. Nearby, I spotted a juvenile S. Xswaniana. I must say that I was tempted to take that juvenile one, but where would that leave the gene pool? I left it where it grew.
I raise CPs in my front yard bog garden. I know that there are less than a handful of people in my Metropolitan area who do the same. At our recent SC Native Plant Society's annual plant sale, there were VFTs, sundews, and S. flava that went wanting for a buyer the end of the day. I've been to the local big box stores, and have never seen CPs for sale.
Although I've been tempted to take a plant or two from the wild, I haven't -- yet. But I don't think that the sky would fall if I did.
I'm just saying...
|
|