|
Post by BarryRice on Mar 16, 2007 15:39:04 GMT
OK, so I'll make a call out to any landowners in the SE USA that have populations of Sarracenia on your property.
I'd like to set up an experiment, a sound and scientific experiment in which we take a statistically significant number of plants IN THE WILD, and remove a single growth crown from the plant. I'd like to measure mortality of the remaining plant, and compare that to mortality of a control group. It would be nice to have some science to back up statements about the plant surviving the division process.
Yes, I know that I can take a cultivated plant and tear it to bits, and each bit will survive. But that's different from the wild. For example, it might be that by mucking around with plants you get enough human scent on the rhizome that curious and hungry raccoons dig up the rhizome after you leave. Or salt hungry porcupines destroy the rhizome.
Anyone got a lot of Sarracenia on your property?
|
|
|
Post by Michael Catalani on Mar 16, 2007 16:47:47 GMT
To Barry's point about the damage animals can do, here's a quick photo from an S. alabamensis site. I was walking up to this plant with a member of the TNC when we found a significant hole next to an S. alabamensis plant. The first thought that crossed our mind was that of poaching, although this site had not been poached to our knowledge. Upon closer inspection, we found claw marks. The hole was probably made by an armadillo. You can see the damage these animals can do. If he had wanted to uproot the S. alabamensis plant, he would have had no problem in doing so. Fortunately, we dont believe he dug up an actual plant.
|
|
|
Post by sunbelle on Mar 16, 2007 21:29:10 GMT
Wild pigs will also root out Sarracenia. We've seen the spoor and rooting holes around the bases of large clumps of S. minor.
|
|
gregh
Full Member
Posts: 17
|
Post by gregh on Mar 16, 2007 23:06:16 GMT
I agree with Mike (Hi Mike) about getting permission from the landowner. Nothing breeds ill will more than taking something from someones land (even if they didn't know they had it). From what I have found in Texas (home of the barbed wire fence) if you don't know who owns the land, you probably won't be welcome there if caught. If you ask the owner many will welcome you on, as long as they know you don't have the power of imminent domain. I have found this with fossil collecting and I would assume the same would hold true for plants. To them it's often just some rocks or weird plants that they won't miss.
|
|
|
Post by mannyherrera on Mar 17, 2007 1:02:57 GMT
I do not believe that removing a crown/division from a large wild plant will cause any damage. I know of several plants/cultivars that have entered the "mainstream" in this manner. I agree with what some have said. If you come across an exceptional plant you should at least remove a division. I started exploring Sarracenia habitats in 1993. You can imagine how much heartbreak I've experienced when favorite stomping grounds have become strip malls or golf courses. There is a spot in the Florida panhandle that has S.flava 'maxima' (the all green variant) and a nice red, large form of S.leucophylla growing on it. Last time I was there there were two gas stations flanking it. It's incredible to see this plot of land with lush wildflowers in between to buildings. Finding flava maxima in the wild is not the easiest thing to do. From what I can see it's not very common in collections either. It would be a shame to let these plants become the foundation for a Citgo or Exxon. What can one do (rhetorical question)?
|
|
|
Post by pinglover on Mar 17, 2007 14:47:51 GMT
I would be a proponent of leaving it be.
So, one stumbles across a plant growing in the wild and recognizes it as being different from all the surrounding plants and removes it with or without permission from the landowner. When one removes that “to die for” sport is one truly preserving anything? It is true its genetics were part of the gene pool not an addition to it but that doesn’t mean that over time it would have ever stabilized. Variations in the wild occur but this does not mean they are the best representation of the species to use for restoration purposes. We can’t disinherit the genes but we certainly can’t claim it would have sooner or later occurred naturally. Crosses in nature producing characteristics different from that of the straight species parents happen and not so infrequently as is evidenced by the sheer number of subspecies out there but whether or not one can say it would have survived in the wild had it not been removed is a completely different story. Isolating and perpetuating such a plant in cultivation doesn’t mean that over time it would have ever stabilized. These crosses, although possible in nature, have an infinitely low probability of ever spontaneously occurring. When one removes such a plant from the wild with or without permission from the landowner, I believe one is doing so exclusively for horticultural purposes (possible cultivar status) because they certainly aren’t speeding up any natural process and progeny certainly shouldn’t be used for restoration work.
Many people have removed the “fruits” of indigenous plant seed banks for horticultural purposes. The seed is logged for location data then propagated by a nursery to ultimately be sold. I can’t even begin to fathom the genotype that would have been lost forever were it not for nurseries that went in and removed plant material before bull dozers began revving their engines. Happens all the time, but is it right to remove the “fruits” of indigenous plant seed banks in anticipation bull dozers might some day rev their engines or for that matter in anticipation of herbicide applications?
|
|
|
Post by gaz on Mar 18, 2007 18:21:08 GMT
Just to add my view on this very interesting subject.Although i feel very strongly about protecting plants in the wild i also feel that when a particularly beautiful strain is found, like s 'adrian slack' for example,it should be preserved by taking a division.I say preserved as 95% of natural habitat has already been destroyed.So the chance of its habitat still being there in ten years is unlikely.Even if the plant is growing in a protected area a division should still be taken to increase the plants numbers in horticultural circles.As long as the mother plant is left in situ and undamaged everybody wins,including the plant as its numbers will be increased by the intervention of man.
|
|
|
Post by pinglover on Mar 18, 2007 19:06:11 GMT
For preservation, it is best to select cuttings from plants most representative of the species. A sport is not the best representation of the species. I believe if one were truly attempting to preserve the species, one would take cuttings of every plant but the sport as well as other plants growing in the harvest area. Those cuttings would be propagated and idealistically placed in the hands of restorationists and reconstructionists. Native plant communities are an invaluable resource.
Regarding horticultural collection, I look to the events leading up to the introduction of Brooks Garcias' named cultivars from the Wilkerson Bog for inspiration. How he went in and removed the invasive species from that area and followed up with controlled burns was truly inspirational to me. To this day; I believe he still manages that area while enjoying the fruits of his labor. Conservation at its finest based on what I know.
|
|
|
Post by gaz on Mar 18, 2007 20:45:40 GMT
Im confused pinglover ,so your suggesting when they discovered s 'adrian slack'growing in the meadow they should have ignored it and taken cuttings of the surrounding flava and leuco instead which are already bountiful? Your logic eludes me.
Far better to take a division from the unique rarity in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by marcel on Mar 18, 2007 21:59:43 GMT
there is a difference between conservational interest and horticultural interest. From a conservation point of view it is better to take a sample from a typical plant then from an oddity how ever beautiful. Just a case of the widest gene pool.
|
|
|
Post by sunbelle on Mar 19, 2007 19:46:14 GMT
(if the mods want to create a new thread with these posts, that would be fine, we posted here because we had mentioned our trip in this thread) Back in April of 2004 a firend of ours told us about a stand of S. minor located EAST of I-95 near the city of Fort Pierce in St. Lucie County, FL. The site was on property owned by the railroad. The last we heard, the land was sold to a developer and will be turned into an industrial park. The county of St. Lucie made efforts to move the stand to another location, but there were too many minors to move. At the time, our friend who was invlolved with the rescue efforts with the county gave us some of the plants that were going to be destroyed. We still have these S.minor from St. Lucie Cnty in our collection today, and our friend still has a few in his collection as well. The S. minor from St. Lucie county is different from the Okeechobee stand. Okeechobee is inland, in the middle of the FL peninsula at the very top of Lake Okeechobee. Winter conditions there are much colder than the Fort Pierce, St. Lucie county site. The St. Lucie County site is much closer to the east coast (on the Atlantic ocean side) and because of the moderating effect of the water and gulf stream, that site always has warmer winters. It's about as far south as the Okeechobee site, give or take a few miles. What is really amazing is how this location begins to fall in to a sub tropical condition. This site is about an hour drive north of us. We were able to visit several times back in April of 2004. Here are some additional photos of this special S.minor site, many of these pics are not posted on our website (please excuse the quality, these were taken before we got the digital camera, so they are copies and not the most sharp and detailed) Remember, these were taken three years ago in April 2004 Here are some wide shots of the environment These were HUGE clumps... and these photos were taken after our friends had done massive collecting with permission from the County. Like we wrote above, these photos show what was left over AFTER several collecting sessions. If every collector that wanted one got one, there would be thousands left over. Here is Michelle with the S. minors
|
|
|
Post by sunbelle on Mar 19, 2007 19:53:22 GMT
Since we’re only about an hour drive from this St. Lucie County S. minor site, we have wanted to go back and see if it was developed. We had the chance to go up there this past Saturday. Expecting to see an industrial park, not S. minor habitat, we got in the car and headed up I-95 with the music blasting, camera loaded with batteries, and a bag & shovel in the trunk just in case there were any S.minor still there. We turned the corner onto the road where the site becomes visible…. And RELIEF! The site is still there! Here is what the site looks like from the road (new pics, taken Saturday) Before we even get back into the area where the minors grow, the surrounding area has D. capillaris There were signs of fire, looks like a little over a year ago. The place looks totally different. We use landmarks we know to find our way to the S. minor. There were GIGANTIC clumps growing here… in this exact area. Now there are none. Where the heck are the plants? We looked, and looked, and looked. Finally, we found the dead Sarracenia minor rhizomes. What could have happened? It could have been a series of bad events finally killed them. Perhaps a bad fire, then three hurricanes back to back hit that area. Looks like they’ve been dead for a while now. There are no dried minor pitchers, no flower stalks with pods, no sign of them -except for the rhizomes. The rhizomes are brown and mushy inside, not a sign of seed sprouting. Nothing was left. Here is a photo of one of our plants in our collection. We have two beautiful, large, healthy plants. They bloom every year and we have seed as well (true to location). If it wasn’t for the few plants that were collected from this site and given to us, they would be gone now, lost forever… from natural causes, not development. Thank goodness for the few plants in cultivation. ---- As for the issue of collecting exceptional plants versus typical for the stand… WE DO BOTH…. and WE ARE THE HORTICULTURISTS. We have fancy, very complex man made hybrids made just for horticultural interest or simply “something pretty to grow”. We also have our “true to location” species breeding, were we cross typical specimens from the same stand to each other, as would happen in nature. ****************** The minor pics are an ICPS forum exclusive, you won't find this info anywhere else on the web... but we do have older photos of this S.minor site published on our webpage at this address www.sunbelleexotics.com/Sunbelle/Photo_Wild_S.minor.htmHope you all find this interesting. We look forward to hearing feedback. Michelle and Trent
|
|
|
Post by pinglover on Mar 20, 2007 1:17:01 GMT
Fire is something many of our lands have been severely lacking for many years. I do not generally view fire as a foe.
These are very complex issues, that's for sure.
For the record; no point in controlling, managing, or eradicating invasive species on land slated for development. Although there are those who would disagree with me, I believe it would be an exercise in futility. Best to move out all indigenous plant material and do so as expeditiously as possible providing one has the permission of the land manager to do so. Even better to call in other organizations as well as any interested private citizens capable of harvesting from these types of properties... with the permission of the land manager.
I am a member of The Wild Ones. Any member who chooses may participate in plant rescues provisional upon development being imminent and provisional upon written permission having been granted from the land manager or owner. That plant material is then made available to appropriate entities as defined by The Wild Ones chapter. Incredibly, my local chapter includes native plant nursery owners as an appropriate entity and I approve of their inclusion. Perpetuation of species. Most of the volunteers who go in and remove plant materials rarely if ever take anything home for themselves. By the time one finishes up a few days working at the same site... one rarely wants to look at another plant from that site ever again.
My personal concerns are not with organizations or individuals such as Sunbelle Exotics harvesting from properties slated for development with the knowledge and consent of the land managers. There are those who would crucify me for the following statement but I would go so far as to sanction the removal of the species as well as any sports to be grown for use in a breeding program. Great way for the public at large to get their hands on some really spectacular location plants as well as some potentially great cultivated material in my humble opinion.
May there be many more nurseries such as Sunbelle Exotics out there creating lasting relationships based on trust and respect with land managers and owners to be in a position to get as much indigenous plant material OFF those sites slated for development before they are excavated.
Do I condone the removal of plants from public lands for anything other than scientific purposes- no. Do I condone the removal of plants from private land even with permission of a private land manager or the owner by anyone- not necessarily. I know of far too many situations where in which the ignorance of the private land owner was exploited and capitalized upon.
|
|
|
Post by sunbelle on Mar 20, 2007 13:09:52 GMT
Interesting perspective, PingLover. It would be nice to locate other stands in the area, but really do not want to be tresspassing, and have limited time to pursue it anyway. The whole area is rapidly developing as light industrial, and when we were at this site on Saturday, there were signs of recent survey teams marking off the parcels for development. We're surprised it has taken this long. As an interesting side note, the State of Florida issues a permit for collecting indigenous plant species and the permit does allow for collecting for horticultural purposes, as well as scientific. It is issued by the Ag Dept. If one wishes to collect roadside plants, which are so common in the Fl. panhandle, one must also contact the Dept of Transportation in that particular county. When you tell a DOT officer about collecting plants in the ditch, they treat you like you just stepped off the flying saucer. It has been a convoluted journey!
|
|
|
Post by pinglover on Mar 21, 2007 0:03:09 GMT
This is just a thought but... a long time ago some of the original members of the Wild Ones chapter went out and began meeting with small contractors and mid sized developers as well as folk in building and zoning. They created relationships that have stood the test of time. We now have one member who receives a fax of every property for which a permit has been requested. This includes an aerial view of the property as well as some contact information. The aerial views are particularly helpful as we can generally spot wetlands species. A letter of introduction is sent briefly describing what our chapter does and it includes a certificate of insurance. Contact information is provided. That initial correspondence is followed up in a month with a phone call asking if it would be ok if someone from their group would be in a position to meet with a few people from our group to be able to talk about relocating some plants in any areas that will be excavated. You'd be surprised how many developers will let you on the property. The vast majority are not pigs, they're just out there trying to provide jobs while making a living like everyone else and to add insult to injury... we are an extremely litigious society and they don't particularly appreciate trespassers. They definitely resent vilification (bad press) and are truly appreciative when they are approached with respectful requests. Most of them garden a little bit themselves or have wives who do so it's not surprising to learn many are sick plants are destroyed in the process and they will openly talk about it. It helps to follow up with a nice thank you card signed by people who volunteered and then it's an even bigger help to follow up with an invitation to visit the areas where the plants were relocated even if it is on private property or even if the plants are potted up at a nursery.
What’s really kind of neat is that over the years side conversations have been struck. We do have members of the green industry who readily answer questions and have even offered to visit their properties to make suggestions. Great opportunity to educate and who out there doesn’t want a free personal visit from a horticulturist or a botanist or a native plant enthusiast or a landscape designer or the owner of a nursery? I also remember my neighbor getting a call from a developer who said he had looked at a particular property prior to it being under contract and that although he had decided against purchasing the property, he knew who the buyer was and he knew there was Trillium and Jack in the Pulpit present. He gave us the name of the buyer and told us to use his name when contacting him and to let so and so know that he let us go on his properties and to call him if he had any questions. Really neat opportunity because spring ephemerals die back so they’re hard to locate most of the year and that buyer did in fact let us on his property before he even applied for permits. Sweet man who wanted to know if we could dig up a few Trillium for his wife’s woodland garden at home while we were out there working.
Regarding wanting to look for plants without trespassing, why not jot down the numbers from For Sale signs? Contact the broker/agent and ask them if they would be in a position to forward a correspondence to the new buyers. Attach your letter to the realtor to a nice potted plant with a bow on it then follow it up in a week with a phone call. Write something up that describes your nursery and all that you do and provide photographs. There's nothing wrong with asking. Many realtors are not going to be responsive but sooner or later you're going to run into a few that are receptive to the idea and besides which... they'll be looking at a nice potted plant on their desk to remind them of your nursery so maybe you don't get a call this month.... but maybe you do three to four months from now. Plant material from sites slated for development is toast unless somebody actively pursues it.
|
|