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Post by ICPS-bob on Mar 17, 2007 5:50:11 GMT
This is an open question. We are new and will be evolving over the next several months. My personal hope is that this forum will develop a distinctive and recognizable character that operates on mutual self respect and restraint. I hope words like adult, high standards, technically competent, helpful will be associated with this forum. And, words like juvenile, adolescent, sniping, hateful, authoritarian, a waste of time are seldom associated with this forum. I absolutely do not mean to suggest that people of younger age are not welcome, but this forum operates in the adult world. For these reasons, we have avoided creating a general chat and discussion area, which although informative and fun, often results in many problems as personal beliefs are attacked. We would like to keep this forum focussed on discussions and information specific to carnivorous plants.
We welcome your comments and suggestions about how you would like to see this forum evolve. We will seriously consider all suggestions.
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Clint
Full Member
Posts: 808
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Post by Clint on Mar 18, 2007 1:48:43 GMT
I'll be honest that I get sick and tired of questions like "HELP! My Venus Fly Trap has a black leaf!!!" and "My pitcher plant isn't looking good, but I won't tell you what genus it is or what my conditions are!" or "Ak omg pwnd u guyz! I luv my vft!" With that being said... I don't want us to be short with the newbies. We were all newbs once. Don't just tell them to do a search unless they do stuff like this all the time. Perhaps tell them what the explanation is then kindly suggest to use the search feature next time because they'll get their answer immediately. I don't want this forum to be over moderated, I don't want it to be an uptight place where people are afraid the mods will bring down the hammer lol. I don't want a place that's unruly and people do and say as they please, either. I want this forum to bring the best aspects of TF and CPUK together while leaving the bad aspects behind, yet I want this to be a separate, non-competitive entity. I hope you guys know what I mean. I don't want this forum to be "The other forum". I want it to be ... I'll say the CP United Nations Bipartisan and unbiased. Everyone counts, we're nice but we're serious. I want this to be a place where a seasoned scientist or professor and a person who just killed their first Dionaea can come together and talk about what we love, CP's.
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Post by Michael Catalani on Mar 18, 2007 3:06:18 GMT
With that being said... I don't want us to be short with the newbies. We were all newbs once. Don't just tell them to do a search unless they do stuff like this all the time. Perhaps tell them what the explanation is then kindly suggest to use the search feature next time because they'll get their answer immediately. One thing that has helped in other forums that I'm a member in (ie Astronomy) is that there is a newbie section so that they can ask questions and not be flamed about how the topic has been covered 1 million times. Whenever the people with experience find some time, they jump over to the newbie forum to help them out. This shields regular members from seeing these questions asked over and over again in the other sections, while allowing people with experience and time to hop over to the newbie section to help them out. And in most other forums, the search feature is practically useless. Some are just plain horrid. If I know that a topic was recently covered, I'll locate it and post a link to it for the person asking the question rather than tell them to use the search feature and find it.
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Post by sundewmatt on Mar 19, 2007 0:41:07 GMT
"we have avoided creating a general chat and discussion area, which although informative and fun, often results in many problems as personal beliefs are attacked"
good idea. the more on topic and factual you keep it, the less trouble there will be. peoples opinions vary and time is too precious to waste arguing with people who will never see things the same way you do. of course if this forums going to work, its got to have the perks of other forums - like email notification when there are replies for instance. unless i missed something.
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Tanja
Full Member
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Post by Tanja on Apr 3, 2007 3:12:49 GMT
I would like to see a section for beginners. A place where we can ask questions. I consider myself a beginner, since I have only been growing three years. I do find it a bit intimidating posting questions or opinions on this site with so many experts, although so far everyone has been very nice and welcoming. 1.) A place just for beginners to post questions, that experienced growers could browse and give advice when they feel inclined. 2.) A basic growing section for major groups of plants. VFT, Sarracenia, Nepenthes (Highland and Lowland), Drosera -- Temperate and Tropical, . . . 3.) A section for basic seed germination. (I know that there is an excellent section on the main ICPS website, but for beginning growers maybe just an overview. The detail can be overwhelming, although a link to the detailed explanations would be helpful too. ) 4.) A section on propagation with pictures and definitions of terms. 5.) A general glossary with terms and pictures. What does a gemmae look like? Thanks for letting me put in my two cents. Tanja
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Clint
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Post by Clint on Apr 3, 2007 3:21:15 GMT
We have boards for the different genera. I think separating Nepenthes into high and lowland and Drosera into temperate and tropical is a bit much.
Hon, don't be intimidated! And your 2 cents is always welcomed.
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Tanja
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Post by Tanja on Apr 4, 2007 17:10:27 GMT
We have boards for the different genera. I think separating Nepenthes into high and lowland and Drosera into temperate and tropical is a bit much. I was thinking more along the lines of a beginner section "how to" and "to ask" questions for the different genera. I had read what people are posting on the boards, and it is more along the lines of their beautiful plants and what they have done. Most people posting are between intermediates and expert growers. For a beginner that isn't going to be very useful for learning to grow the plants. I have learned living here in Florida that it is very difficult for me to grow Highland Neps, because I don't get cooler temps. I am growing all my plants outside on a porch or in my yard full sun. No greenhouse or inside growing, no grow lights. I certainly don't want to go in the general board and say, "My VFT is dying, what do you think is wrong?" I know everyone is tired of those types of questions, but for beginners, I don't see those kinds of basic questions being answered. BTW my VFTs are fine in the sun and quite happy. Just an example. My Nepenthes on the other hand, lose their pitchers when I bring them home, and after a year, finally produce pitchers. Just a example. Thanks again. And I do appreciate the encouragement. Tanja
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Post by wallsg7 on Apr 12, 2007 17:27:37 GMT
I think this forum is different already.One of the things which struck me straight away are the big cp names that are present like bob and barry.To be able to put questions to these people and learn from their many years of experience is invaluable.Especialy for beginners such as myself.
Secondly it is an advantage, i think ,that the forum is usa based as this is where the main conservation efforts are taking place.
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Post by BarryRice on Apr 13, 2007 17:53:18 GMT
I think this forum is different already.One of the things which struck me straight away are the big cp names that are present like bob and barry.To be able to put questions to these people and learn from their many years of experience is invaluable.Especialy for beginners such as myself. Hey wallsg7, I'm tickled that you consider me one of the "big cp names". But don't confuse prominence in this very small culture with expertise. They don't always go hand in hand. Leilani, sunbelle, and Robert Cantley on this forum all know vastly more about Nepenthes than I, while there are comparable experts on the other genera on line. These folks are also on other fora, too. Bob, on the other hand, is hugely qualified, and I pattern myself after him. He is my hero. I have a Bob shrine in a secret room, with newspaper articles, a few hair samples, and even a toenail clipping or two.
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Post by ICPS-bob on Apr 13, 2007 18:39:39 GMT
Barry, just remember to flush after visiting my shrine.
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Post by wallsg7 on Apr 14, 2007 10:38:52 GMT
You guys are kidding right!!? Barry with your great book on cps.Bob with the amazing photo finder which i use on a regular basis.Total respect to you both. I keep hearing other names like schnell, slack and king but who they are i have no idea Then of course theres the wannabees.Less said about them the better. And barry yes do please flush...thats disgusting.lol.and if your woman is anything like mine...put the toilet seat back down! All the best Gary
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Post by zpyder on Aug 9, 2007 18:31:07 GMT
First off, sorry for the long post, things kept coming into my head as I was typing. I’ve made an abstract and summary for those who don’t want to read the mini-essay! - The below is just an extended opinion, with the aim of providing something useful in terms of feedback if nothing else!
Abstract: I discuss the motivation behind posting here, stressing that I only wish to help and offer feedback from myself, potentially representing a portion of the CP enthusiast demographics’ views. An issue regarding high standards causing a foreboding atmosphere to potential visitors and contributors is addressed. Possible justification for encouraging less experienced or academically minded is given in that with a larger active member base the exchange of information will be greater, with the potential for new discoveries to be made that otherwise may have gone unnoticed. The topic of General discussion is then mentioned, with casual observations on its merits as well as negative aspects, with a view that ultimately the advantages may outweigh the disadvantages. A summary is then made (which if you don’t want to read the bulk of the below, you might want to read) – Followed by a brief disclaimer
(My)Introduction I came into this section to suggest a general chat section, but having read through this thread, I can understand the reasons behind not having one.
The main reason I'm posting here is due to the recent greenhouse thread. Now, I don't mind the fact that my post was deleted (among others) Rather, I am ashamed more than anything else. I am enthusiastic about CP's, and want to learn as much as I can. I hope that one day I may be able to offer something useful to the hobby and conservation efforts. There's no denying that there are many potential scientists, horticulturalists, and conservationists out in the world and on the internet. Many of which may be as young, or younger than myself, and may be daunted by the prospect of participating and contributing to the discussion here. I feel myself that they should rather be encouraged to contribute. You have to start/learn somewhere!
High standards = intimidating atmosphere As I said, I understand the lack of a GD section. However, having been around for less than a week here, I'd like to offer my views into first impressions of someone who is a beginner-amateur, and is young. To be blunt, this place is daunting and intimidating.
I say this only because of my desire to help. I fear that possibly due to the sheer knowledge and experience many here have, the initial enthusiasm and energy that the young budding CP grower has might have been forgotten. To keep to the high standards, I fear that the forums may end up being foreboding to the average grower. However I do understand the fear of degeneration into juvenile and pointless posts, and posts such as those mentioned previously like "MY VFT is dying, please help!”
The suggestion of a beginners section in this regards is great. It would open the door to people like myself, who previously may have feared that the topic is beneath value of the forum.
The ICPS and the internet’s combined potential Whilst beginning the research phase of my dissertation, I sat and thought of different organisations that may have useful resources, the ICPS came out at the top of this list, being the most relevant and focused on CP's. Being a student with a limited budget, I had to choose, membership to the ICPS or the British CPS. I chose the ICPS hoping that an international member base would mean a much larger wealth of knowledge in the form of the larger collective knowledge of CP growers around the world. Frequently in the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter there are calls for people to send in letters, as the CPN is driven by member content. How much information could be out there? Radical tips and theories that Joe Blog’s (Who has never been published, and never even considered it) is afraid to send in to an international journal. How many of these people could be more tempted to post the information on the internet?
In the CPN back issues, occasionally discussion topics from the CP Mailing list were published. The forum as such could be used in the same way, as another source of publishable material. Occasionally, publishable and useful topics and information might surface that would never have been submitted to the newsletter!
However for this to work, I would say from my initial view of the forum on the whole, the forum needs to be much more enticing to your average run of the mill grower.
I cannot deny that it would be a trade-off. The standards could decline a little with less academically minded or experienced people joining, but value as a CP resource may well increase as the amount of information being exchanged grows.
Larger member bases, their problems and controls Sadly no system is perfect (they never are) with regards to maintaining high standards/quality whilst keeping a large, active, member base. The lack of a General Discussion / Off-topic board is a different idea, but I would have to point out that this doesn't stop off topic posts from occurring. Far from it, all that occurs is off-topic posts are made in forums that should be strictly on topic. For instance, friendly banter has occurred in this very same thread, which does not stay on topic. Such friendly jokes may otherwise have stayed (mostly) within an off-topic section. Another benefit is to see the people “behind the name”. It is humbling to communicate with published researchers and growers, to banter and discuss non related topics with these celebrities of the botanical world could prove useful in breaking the barriers between Joe Blog’s, and the green fingered elite. I’m not suggesting that these barriers exist, but that to some people they may be real. I imagine that there are people who are even more in awe of Bob and Barry than Wallsg7, and may be afraid to attempt communication.
With regards to the attacks on beliefs, some forums employ a board usually named "Speakers Corner" or similar, for general rants and raves on a variety of topics. A caveat is usually in place, where those who are likely to be offended or hurt by heated debates are warned they should not read or participate inside. This does work quite well, though sadly some topics and views are so strong that it can get messy.
Both the above suggestions regarding an off-topic board and/or speakers corner essentially require more moderation. As well as meaning more work for the moderators (or a larger team...?) an inevitable result is the accusation of over-moderation – usually by someone out to cause trouble, but in my mind the alternative is just as bad, or worse.
Summary My general view is that the forum in its present state is a useful tool to a portion of the global CP enthusiast network, with quality information kept at a high standard. I however feel that the true value of the forum has not been fully realised yet, and to do so it needs to encourage more members, by making the forum more approachable by those who would otherwise be intimidated by the current high standards. Provisions could be made that would lessen the impact on standards, with the ultimate aim of having both amateurs and experts alike in one place sharing information. This would require extra work for the moderation team, but as the member base and activity grows; the team could be expanded or reduced as required.
Disclaimer My views above are that of a 22 year old student who has had an on/off interest in CP’s from an early age. My personality is that of a quiet individual, who enjoys communicating via the internet where some barriers are reduced. I believe that there are a significant number of individuals out there that may well share the same traits, and may be able to offer something to the forum and ICPS as a whole. The amount of time I have invested in typing this is a small token of how strongly I desire to contribute in some way, be it by sharing information or just offering feedback.
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Post by Aidan on Aug 10, 2007 18:18:18 GMT
Sorry, but for a variety of reasons the decision was made that the ICPS forum would not have an "Open" board. There are a number of other carnivorous plant fora out there and most of them do have such areas and also cater more directly to the raw beginner. The majority of members here are also members of other fora and get different things out of each. A list of the various other fora may be found here: icps.proboards105.com/index.cgi?board=societies&action=display&thread=1176252614Take a look at some of them.
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Post by zpyder on Aug 10, 2007 19:57:55 GMT
Ok, I appreciate that. As said, the previous post wasn't so much a request, but a series of observations, suggestions and feedback. I guessed that this would be the response, however I felt that it would be far worse to leave my observations unsaid. Make no mistake, I like what is here, I only thought that it might be improved upon, not changed, if such a thing is possible. Obviously people joining the forum would see the style and atmosphere, and if they didn't like it, they wouldn't take part. So I understand that generally everyone already here will be happy as is. My thought however, is that if it were a little different, "Everyone here" would be a much larger number, and in my view, this could be good. With regards to going elsewhere for CP discussion of a lower caliber (Beginners questions and off-topic), this is all very well, however in my experience, a large portion of internet users do not have the time to invest in participating in several community based websites, let alone several on the same topic. Obviously those people that are active here are dedicated, and so are likely to be the contrary to this observation. I remember 12 years ago whilst writing an information booklet for my school, the first thing I found on the internet was the CP Database, maintained by Rick. Similarly when I first began my current research, the first point of call was the ICPS website. I'd imagine for many people just starting out and seeking information, this case also applies. It would be a shame to lose a potential part of a community by not accommodating them. The CPUK forum does indeed look more friendly/active than here, whilst possibly being a little less structured or organised. This is sadly the price that is paid with larger member bases. Ultimately however, the range of topics addressed by 2000 members would most likely far outnumber those by 500. There would be some replication, and some moderation required yes, but the information would be there. As in nature, species survive by genetic diversity, the larger the gene pool the better, of course, you do get your mutants too!My concern and view is that the society as a whole would benefit the most by encouraging as much activity here as possible. Not only would it be publicity and increase the network via word of mouth, but the amount of information present would increase. Much like how the back issue database's search function is a very powerful tool for finding articles on a topic, as there is such a wealth of information in over 30 years of the CPN now, even if the "Why is my VFT dying" question ends up being asked over and over again, in the end a search on this forum would come up with a multitude of parameters and answers to each question. As is frequently pointed out, everyones growing conditions are different and there is never one definite answer to any particular problem. Also, for many people they would not be able to attend meetings, nor may there be other enthusiasts they know of in the general area. I am lucky to know that there is yourself as well as some others in the South of England, and so long as I don't end up getting kicked out for my young and juvenile views (Maybe I'm young enough to think I can still change the world perhaps?) - One day I may be able to meet and view these collections that previously I have only been able to admire from a desk chair. I understand that the view is to keep this place "clean and top quality" by sticking strongly to topic. However I sought to point out that the system is potentially flawed, even giving an example of this very same thread going slightly off topic in some posts. Removing the General Discussion board will sadly not remove the general discussion from everywhere else. I commend the effort however and to the larger part would agree it is achieving what is intended. Really the main point and issue I sought to raise was that possibly the ultimate aim of being such a clear cut, to-the-point forum would not be what the ICPS would want? The image I have of the ICPS is of an umbrella organisation, covering everything CP related, and open to all - beginners and cultivators alike. Specifically targeting interaction of only a certain standard could end up creating the view of which many readers showed in the CPN polls in the back issues regarding the Newsletters content, this being that it was "Too technical". I for one think the CPN is just right, and would imagine having a different atmosphere in a different medium would be ideal. Don't worry, I won't push the topic any further, I'll be good My aim was to at the least make it noticed that the views of some visitors to this forum would be that this is for the dedicated grower, and that they should go elsewhere if they aren't such a person. (This is obvious fairly quickly after visiting). I was not sure if this was the image and effect the ICPS desired, and so felt the need to bring it to attention. I now have, and it is not for me to say what should be done, if anything! I can see the benefits and disadvantages of being a forum open to all discussion, and tried to mention some of the benefits in the previous post (More material for CPN), as well as the disadvantages. Hopefully I've not come across as too annoying, and can still end up a useful part of this community in time. I want only to help if I can (My knowledge of CP's isn't as great as others here, and so I felt I could help in some otherway) , and as I said, I felt someone needed to say something regarding this! An Aside (yes, I like typing) - One influence I have for the opinion that more activity and visitors is a good thing , is a computer scientist who has developed several interesting small applications. His view is that people waste a lot of time on the computer doing things they deem "fun". He is responsible for the creation of such things as those security codes you have to enter, humans can decypher the image, but character recognition software can't. He also developed a very powerful search tool for images - He released a game where two people would have a limited time to type tags describing the image they saw. Points were scored when both people said the same description. It was a free game, and because it was fun, many people used it to see if they thought the same as their friends. This game had another use though. Every time these people tagged an image, the database of words describing the image grew. This principal has been adopted and used in many sites since. The more people that tag the images (Because its fun!) The more accurate and valuable is the search tool. More relevant results appear, as a search for "cute dog" would ultimately return what the most people found to be a picture of a cute dog. I find things like the above interesting, sorry if it is deemed off topic. The reason I mentioned it was I see the same principal in forums, more people, more participation, results in the most useful resource. If anyone would like to learn more about this scientist and his creations I can dig out the information, hes created several more applications that are even more fascinating.
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Post by ICPS-bob on Aug 10, 2007 20:08:51 GMT
zpyder, thank you for your well-considered comments. As Aidan mentioned, we have discussed at length what we desire this forum to be and not to be. We certainly do not want forum participants to feel intimidated, although we can only attempt to control our end of the bargain by encouraging participants to be helpful and kind to one another. We do want this forum to operate in an adult and professional manner and to provide useful information to beginners and experts alike. We strongly encourage participants to first look to the vast amount of information already available on the Web about carnivorous plant fundamentals. If, after some searching, the desired information is not found, then post a question. Often the reply will be a link to an authoritative source, rather than endlessly repeating information better covered elsewhere. For example, Barry's FAQ will answer nearly all beginner's questions: www.sarracenia.com/faq.html
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